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Old Mon Dec 29, 2003, 11:32am
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Didn't happen, but I was wondering what you could do if it did. HS and NCAA rules.

Team A down by 3 points, A1 releases ball at half court and a sub (B) at the table runs on to the court to block it as time expires.

It doesn't seem justified to only give a T with two free throws.

What would you do? (congrats coach on a smart but cheap win?)

D
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Old Mon Dec 29, 2003, 11:41am
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Boy...I'd be so fired up!!! I'd seriously consider scoring the bucket and administering the FT's. That'd teach em!
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Old Mon Dec 29, 2003, 11:53am
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Haven't we had this question before? What I logged in my memory at that time was, "I'm never going to need this" so I don't remember the answer.

I think I'd assume, in reading this, that there's no way the bench defender could get onto the court to block the shot on the way up, thus it had to be at the basket, and thus you'd give the shot on the basis of goaltending, and then free throws for the flagrant T.

Now that I think about it, I doubt this is physically possible, except in the NBA, since at the end of a game A is shooting in front of their own bench, and I can't see how a B player could get to the ball from the bench in time to make a difference in the game. If the shot didn't go, it couldn't possibly be from the unsportsmanlike act.

I suppose a more realistic question would be if a bench player came onto the court and fouled the shooter. Then you could give three shots, plus two for the T and that comes out pretty fair, unless it's 7th grade.
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Old Mon Dec 29, 2003, 12:04pm
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Too bad the search function is down. We've had some long discussions on this type of play. Having a sub doing it is different, though. The other threads used a player off of the bench.

If it's a legal block with no contact, there's nothing to call there. So, go to Plan B. Award a technical foul for a sub entering the court without being beckoned(R10-2), plus a second T for having more than 5 team members participating simultaneously(R9-1-6). They are two separate acts. Give team A 4 FT's for the 2 T's.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 29, 2003, 12:41pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Too bad the search function is down. We've had some long discussions on this type of play. Having a sub doing it is different, though. The other threads used a player off of the bench.

If it's a legal block with no contact, there's nothing to call there. So, go to Plan B. Award a technical foul for a sub entering the court without being beckoned(R10-2), plus a second T for having more than 5 team members participating simultaneously(R9-1-6). They are two separate acts. Give team A 4 FT's for the 2 T's.

There is a solution to this play, but it is not your solution. I would charge B6 with a technical foul for entering the court illegally. The technical foul for this infraction does not cause the ball to become dead because of continuous motion. When B6 blocks A1's shot, B6 can be charged with a second technical foul for unsportsmanlike conduct for interfering with A1's field goal attempt.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 29, 2003, 01:08pm
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So I count six fee throws now!

Illegally entering court!
Unsportsmanlike act!
Six players on the court!

3 T's

AK ref SE
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Old Mon Dec 29, 2003, 01:13pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by AK ref SE
So I count six fee throws now!

Illegally entering court!
Unsportsmanlike act!
Six players on the court!

3 T's

AK ref SE

Absolutely NOT!! Only two technical fouls and four free throws in my interpretation: illegally entering the court and unsportsmanlike conduct. Illegally entering the court and six players on the court really cannot be penalized for the same act, either you have one or the other but you really cannot have both.

MTD, Sr.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 29, 2003, 01:22pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

[/B]
The technical foul for this infraction does not cause the ball to become dead because of continuous motion. [/B][/QUOTE]Care to explain that one, O Great Rules Guru?

That statement doesn't make any sense at all, in the context of this play. Or did you put it in there just to confuse the newbies? From the original post, A1 released the shot. THEN, the B sub blocked it. According to Rule 4-11-1, continuous motion ends when the ball is in flight- i.e. continuous motion isn't involved in this play in any way,shape, or form.

Gonna deny that R4-11-1 exists too, Mark?

It is now your turn to write your latest treatise on why you are the only one in the whole world that could possibly give the right answer to this play. Babble on!
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 29, 2003, 01:25pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Quote:
Originally posted by AK ref SE
So I count six fee throws now!

Illegally entering court!
Unsportsmanlike act!
Six players on the court!

3 T's

AK ref SE

Absolutely NOT!! Only two technical fouls and four free throws in my interpretation: illegally entering the court and unsportsmanlike conduct. Illegally entering the court and six players on the court really cannot be penalized for the same act, either you have one or the other but you really cannot have both.

Heeheeheehee.....

Told you so! "The only possible correct interpretation is MY interpretation"- MTD Sr.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 29, 2003, 01:27pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[/B]
Illegally entering the court and six players on the court really cannot be penalized for the same act, either you have one or the other but you really cannot have both.

[/B][/QUOTE]Do you have a rules reference to back that statement up?
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Old Mon Dec 29, 2003, 01:46pm
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Jurassic Referee:

As a Moderator of this Forum, it pains me to inform you that personal attacks in the Forum are not tolerated. If you can not conduct your posts in a gentlemanly manner, you should consider not posting at all.

I read the post to read that A1's releasing of the ball and B6 entering the court occured at the same time. But your interpretation that A1 had already released the ball before B6 had entered the court is an equally valid reading of the post.

You are correct that if A1 had already released the ball when B6 entered the court, continuous motion is not a factor, but if the ball is still in A1's hand then continuous motion is a factor.

But in any case, two or three points (depending on A1's position on the court) cannot be awarded to Team A for B6's blocking of A1's field goal attempt. But the two technical fouls that I proposed are still the most logical infractions of the rules that can be charged.

MTD, Sr.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 29, 2003, 01:55pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Illegally entering the court and six players on the court really cannot be penalized for the same act, either you have one or the other but you really cannot have both.

[/B]
Do you have a rules reference to back that statement up? [/B][/QUOTE]


Over the years (32 years to be exact) I have had a sixth player run onto the court illegally, because he/she thought that they were supposed to be in the game. Everytime this has happened, my partner(s) and I have come to the conclusion that charging two technical fouls is overkill. If the official sees the player illegally enter the court, then this is the technical foul that should be charged. If the official does not see that player illegally enter the court but sees six players on the court, then charge the team with a technical foul for too many players. But it has been my belief and the opinion of many of my friends that two technical fouls are overkill.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 29, 2003, 01:57pm
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MTD Sr. is correct. The point is to come up with enough Ts to give A a chance to win, which is what they had before B's unsporting act.

In a previous thread, the sitch had a sub entering the court an tackling A1 before he launched the last second shot. My opinion there was to give the T for entering the court illegally, plus an intentional (and flagrant) foul.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 29, 2003, 02:05pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Illegally entering the court and six players on the court really cannot be penalized for the same act, either you have one or the other but you really cannot have both.
Do you have a rules reference to back that statement up? [/B]

Over the years (32 years to be exact) I have had a sixth player run onto the court illegally, because he/she thought that they were supposed to be in the game. Everytime this has happened, my partner(s) and I have come to the conclusion that charging two technical fouls is overkill. If the official sees the player illegally enter the court, then this is the technical foul that should be charged. If the official does not see that player illegally enter the court but sees six players on the court, then charge the team with a technical foul for too many players. But it has been my belief and the opinion of many of my friends that two technical fouls are overkill. [/B][/QUOTE]If you don't have a rules reference, then how can you say that anyone else is wrong? You are giving your opinion only. That certainly doesn't mean that your opinion is automatically right.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 29th, 2003 at 01:20 PM]
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Old Mon Dec 29, 2003, 02:06pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Illegally entering the court and six players on the court really cannot be penalized for the same act, either you have one or the other but you really cannot have both.
Do you have a rules reference to back that statement up? [/B]

Over the years (32 years to be exact) I have had a sixth player run onto the court illegally, because he/she thought that they were supposed to be in the game. Everytime this has happened, my partner(s) and I have come to the conclusion that charging two technical fouls is overkill. If the official sees the player illegally enter the court, then this is the technical foul that should be charged. If the official does not see that player illegally enter the court but sees six players on the court, then charge the team with a technical foul for too many players. But it has been my belief and the opinion of many of my friends that two technical fouls are overkill. [/B][/QUOTE]

So it sounds like the answer to JR's question is "no but I do have an opinion".
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