Youth dribbler and defender running parallel

[KansasJoe]

New to officiating but coached two boys from K - 7th until the school takes over. Decided to officiate on the weekends with my 15 year old. Doing the lower elementary grades which I enjoy because I get to do quite a bit of coaching while officiating and everyone seems to really enjoy that. Done 31 games so far and will end up doing about 50 by the time the season is over.

Here's a situation which comes up multiple times. B1 is the defender in legal guarding position and A1 is ball handler. A1 drives but instead of B1 sliding over to keep his torso between him and the basket he simply turns and starts sprinting alongside A1. If I see an extended armbar I'll give them a warning and then call a foul since they're restricting A1s movement. What if they're side by side so shoulder to shoulder and A1 jumps sideways into B1? If B1's torso takes the contact then charge but in this case it's their shoulder. Not in legal guarding position but B1 has a right to a place on the floor.

Another scenario is if A1 goes up for a shot and B1 jumps with him there's minimal contact but they both go flying forward. Both scenarios are if they're perfectly even because if A1s head and shoulder is past then I'd call a defensive foul if there's contact.

Probably an easy question for you experienced refs but want to make sure I'm giving my best and having accurate calls which they'll see as they get older.

Thanks,

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by KansasJoe

New to officiating but coached two boys from K - 7th until the school takes over. Decided to officiate on the weekends with my 15 year old. Doing the lower elementary grades which I enjoy because I get to do quite a bit of coaching while officiating and everyone seems to really enjoy that. Done 31 games so far and will end up doing about 50 by the time the season is over.

Here's a situation which comes up multiple times. B1 is the defender in legal guarding position and A1 is ball handler. A1 drives but instead of B1 sliding over to keep his torso between him and the basket he simply turns and starts sprinting alongside A1. If I see an extended armbar I'll give them a warning and then call a foul since they're restricting A1s movement. What if they're side by side so shoulder to shoulder and A1 jumps sideways into B1? If B1's torso takes the contact then charge but in this case it's their shoulder. Not in legal guarding position but B1 has a right to a place on the floor.

Another scenario is if A1 goes up for a shot and B1 jumps with him there's minimal contact but they both go flying forward. Both scenarios are if they're perfectly even because if A1s head and shoulder is past then I'd call a defensive foul if there's contact.

Probably an easy question for you experienced refs but want to make sure I'm giving my best and having accurate calls which they'll see as they get older.

Thanks,

Let's forget that B1 originally had a LGP against A1 and address the situation of A1 dribbling is a straight line and B1 is running beside A1 in a straight line that is parallel to A1's line and with every step that A1 and B1 take they are legally occupying a new spot on the Court.

We should know that like The Theory of Special Relativity is a special application of The Theory of General Relativity, the Guarding Rule is a special application of the Screening Rule (Thanks to Mark, Jr., for that insight.).

Therefore, if B1 is not Guarding A1, what is B1 doing with respect to A1? B1 is in effect setting legal Moving Screen against A1. While B1 cannot make contact with A1 by moving laterally into A1's line of movement, neither can A1 make contact with B1 by moving into B1's line of movement.

Therefore, when A1 moved laterally from his line into B1's line and made contact with B1, A1 has committed a Pushing Foul which is a PCF.

MTD, Sr.

[justacoach]

Kansas Joe:

Kudos for taking on the stripes and contributing. Encourage your youngster to stick with this avocation, much better chance to make it to D1 as an official than as a player. You've found a great repository of knowledge and officiating wisdom in this forum. I strongly encourage you and your son to read the decades worth of accumulated ref-life savvy found here.

As further encouragement, I must admit that my exposure to this forum, even during my coaching days, was instrumental to my 2 older sons attaining high levels in the officiating ranks.

Here's hoping you can do the same. Best of luck

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Let's forget that B1 originally had a LGP against A1 and address the situation of A1 dribbling is a straight line and B1 is running beside A1 in a straight line that is parallel to A1's line and with every step that A1 and B1 take they are legally occupying a new spot on the Court.

We should know that like The Theory of Special Relativity is a special application of The Theory of General Relativity, the Guarding Rule is a special application of the Screening Rule (Thanks to Mark, Jr., for that insight.).

Therefore, if B1 is not Guarding A1, what is B1 doing with respect to A1? B1 is in effect setting legal Moving Screen against A1. While B1 cannot make contact with A1 by moving laterally into A1's line of movement, neither can A1 make contact with B1 by moving into B1's line of movement.

Therefore, when A1 moved laterally from his line into B1's line and made contact with B1, A1 has committed a Pushing Foul which is a PCF.

MTD, Sr.

That is not true. The only legal moving screen is one where B1 is moving in the same PATH and DIRECTION. In your example, they're moving in the same direction but not the same path. They are on parallel paths.

B1, in that play, doesn't not have a right to a path. The defense never has a right to a path. The defense is required to legally get into A1's path, face them, and get 2 feet down, then move while staying in A1's path...running side by side is none of that. If A1 merely deviates path, perhaps running down the court on nearer the sideline and turns toward the basket, absent an unnatural movement, B1 will have committed a blocking foul.

[FlasherZ]

A local junior high coach ]for years has taught his kids to squeeze the sideline and throw hip checks while in transition to attempt to knock the other team off balance, finding that rarely does his team get charged with the proper blocking fouls. It's a poor strategy, and it's a bad showing by officials that should know the very basics.

The same coach found it acceptable for the father of one of his players to officiate their games in tournaments (and the kid's father refused to turn down the assignment, arguing that he was assigned by the tournament administrator - an IHSA official himself), including the championship game. When pressed on the matter, the answer was "he's probably harder on his kids than another official would be" - but that's another matter.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by KansasJoe

New to officiating but coached two boys from K - 7th until the school takes over. Decided to officiate on the weekends with my 15 year old. Doing the lower elementary grades which I enjoy because I get to do quite a bit of coaching while officiating and everyone seems to really enjoy that. Done 31 games so far and will end up doing about 50 by the time the season is over.

Here's a situation which comes up multiple times. B1 is the defender in legal guarding position and A1 is ball handler. A1 drives but instead of B1 sliding over to keep his torso between him and the basket he simply turns and starts sprinting alongside A1. If I see an extended armbar I'll give them a warning and then call a foul since they're restricting A1s movement. What if they're side by side so shoulder to shoulder and A1 jumps sideways into B1? If B1's torso takes the contact then charge but in this case it's their shoulder. Not in legal guarding position but B1 has a right to a place on the floor.

Another scenario is if A1 goes up for a shot and B1 jumps with him there's minimal contact but they both go flying forward. Both scenarios are if they're perfectly even because if A1s head and shoulder is past then I'd call a defensive foul if there's contact.

Probably an easy question for you experienced refs but want to make sure I'm giving my best and having accurate calls which they'll see as they get older.

Thanks,

Kansas Joe and son, here are some rules, thoughts and questions to consider:
I don't have the specific citations for you but the headings provided in rule #4 should be easy to find in your books.

Rule 4: GUARDING
1. After establishing LGP, the defender is allowed to move laterally or obliquely to maintain position provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs. *Note the rule does not say the defender must slide to maintain position but is permitted to move meaning he has options.

2. The rulebook also states the guard is not required to continue facing the opponent. So, while moving to maintain position, does guarding the dribbler with the shoulder or side of the torso facing the dribbler necessarily mean LGP has been lost?

Rule 4: BLOCKING, CHARGING
3. If a guard has obtained LGP, the player with the ball must get
his/her head and shoulders past the torso of the guard. If contact occurs on the torso of the defensive player, the dribbler is responsible for the contact. *Torso = trunk of the player’s body. In some instances the RB and CB make reference to the front of the torso as well as the side of the torso.

Casebook Rule 4: GUARDING POSITION
4. B1 has obtained LGP on A1 and moves to maintain it. A1
moves laterally and contacts defender B1 but does not get
head and shoulders past the torso of B1. Contact occurs on the side of B1’s torso. Ruling: Player control foul by A1.

Questions: In the situation you described, did the defender: Established LGP? Move toward the dribbler causing contact while moving to maintain LGP? While moving to maintain his defensive position, was the dribbler able to get his head/shoulders past defender’s torso? Did the dribbler jump sideways into the side of the defender’s torso? What did the defender do wrong?

Best of luck to you and your son!

[KansasJoe]

Appreciate the replies and the encouragement. Have 8 games this Saturday so should be interesting as some coaches are great while others think every time they're on offense a foul has been committed yet while they're on defense everything is clean.

As far as the responses I'm still a bit confused with conflicting answers. I understand if he gets hit in the torso because the dribbler didn't get his head and shoulder past him. Where the question is since they're shoulder to shoulder. Let's say A1 jumps sideways and a little forward into the defender while running it's not in the torso because it's the shoulder but doesn't the defender have a right to that spot? Would this be better to have a no call or is someone at fault?

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by KansasJoe

Appreciate the replies and the encouragement. Have 8 games this Saturday so should be interesting as some coaches are great while others think every time they're on offense a foul has been committed yet while they're on defense everything is clean.

As far as the responses I'm still a bit confused with conflicting answers. I understand if he gets hit in the torso because the dribbler didn't get his head and shoulder past him. Where the question is since they're shoulder to shoulder. Let's say A1 jumps sideways and a little forward into the defender while running it's not in the torso because it's the shoulder but doesn't the defender have a right to that spot? Would this be better to have a no call or is someone at fault?

As you see the play unfolding you should primarily referee the the defense. If contact occurs you should be able to determine almost immediately if B1 did anything wrong. If not, process the contact initiated by A1 jumping into the side of B1. Was B1 displaced from his attempt to maintain his guarding position? Did A1 gain an obvious advantage such as now being able to put up an uncontested shot? Was A1 simply trying to influence the official into calling a blocking foul on B1? If the answer is no, the contact is likely incidental. No call.

[WI_Ref]

Originally Posted by KansasJoe

Appreciate the replies and the encouragement. Have 8 games this Saturday so should be interesting as some coaches are great while others think every time they're on offense a foul has been committed yet while they're on defense everything is clean.

As far as the responses I'm still a bit confused with conflicting answers. I understand if he gets hit in the torso because the dribbler didn't get his head and shoulder past him. Where the question is since they're shoulder to shoulder. Let's say A1 jumps sideways and a little forward into the defender while running it's not in the torso because it's the shoulder but doesn't the defender have a right to that spot? Would this be better to have a no call or is someone at fault?

You will most likely want to make a call on this especially if the contact seems more than just a brushing.

Based on your description of running side by side and A1 moving laterally into the defender I would call this PCF. I've done it in varsity games, my partners have called it like this and I've seen it and been witness to this same call in D1 men's basketball. Experience obviously helps in these situations as what could look like the same exact play to spectators or coaches could be called differently by the calling official due to their angle on the play.

It's hard for people outside the lines to grasp how officials see the game. We take in and compute a whole bunch of information very fast. When on the court we have a much better feel for the speed and intensity of what is happening.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by KansasJoe

New to officiating but coached two boys from K - 7th until the school takes over. Decided to officiate on the weekends with my 15 year old. Doing the lower elementary grades which I enjoy because I get to do quite a bit of coaching while officiating and everyone seems to really enjoy that....

Here's a situation which comes up multiple times. B1 is the defender in legal guarding position and A1 is ball handler. A1 drives but instead of B1 sliding over to keep his torso between him and the basket he simply turns and starts sprinting alongside A1.... What if they're side by side so shoulder to shoulder and A1 jumps sideways into B1? If B1's torso takes the contact then charge but in this case it's their shoulder.

Originally Posted by FlasherZ

A local junior high coach ]for years has taught his kids to squeeze the sideline and throw hip checks while in transition to attempt to knock the other team off balance, finding that rarely does his team get charged with the proper blocking fouls.

Let me guess: The players and coach in both places are used to soccer. And secondarily American football.

[FlasherZ]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Let me guess: The players and coach in both places are used to soccer. And secondarily American football.

I can't say that soccer isn't part of influence, but soccer isn't that big here. I believe it is a technique he is teaching to his team because it is effective for him. With "no blood, no foul" style officials, it gives him an advantage and frustrates his opponents, no matter how obvious it is.

He's doing a disservice to his players, though, in that it is teaching them bad habits that must be corrected later for HS.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by FlasherZ

He's doing a disservice to his players, though, in that it is teaching them bad habits that must be corrected later for HS.

What percentage of them will go on to play on a HS team?

I frequently see this attitude by coaches in football on the HS level, treating everything pre-HS as if it's just prep for later interscholastic play. Meanwhile those who coach at lower levels point out that if most of the players will never play on a HS team, it makes more sense to coach them for the level they are playing at. College coaches don't treat interscholastic play as just prep for college.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

What percentage of them will go on to play on a HS team?

I frequently see this attitude by coaches in football on the HS level, treating everything pre-HS as if it's just prep for later interscholastic play. Meanwhile those who coach at lower levels point out that if most of the players will never play on a HS team, it makes more sense to coach them for the level they are playing at. College coaches don't treat interscholastic play as just prep for college.

At the rate participation in HS basketball is going, lot of schools around here can't afford to drop any kids off that start on the lower levels . Especially on the girls side.

[FlasherZ]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

What percentage of them will go on to play on a HS team?

I frequently see this attitude by coaches in football on the HS level, treating everything pre-HS as if it's just prep for later interscholastic play. Meanwhile those who coach at lower levels point out that if most of the players will never play on a HS team, it makes more sense to coach them for the level they are playing at. College coaches don't treat interscholastic play as just prep for college.

30-40% will go on to play freshman basketball in HS here. I'm not arguing that he shouldn't coach them for that level, either - I just observe that his players have to do a lot of correction if/when they get there.