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Old Sun Nov 13, 2022, 03:51pm
CJP CJP is offline
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6 players on the court - women's college

Coming out of a time-out, team A breaks team Bs full court press. Team A scores and gets the foul. Opportunity for a three point play. Ball is dead. It is discovered at this point that team A had/has 6 players on the floor. How should this be handled?

Second question. How would it be handled in high school?
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Old Sun Nov 13, 2022, 04:15pm
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You say discovered? Discovered when? You saw 6 on the court or someone informed you that there were 6 on the court. The only way you can call this is when you saw the 6 on the court at some point.

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Old Sun Nov 13, 2022, 04:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
You say discovered? Discovered when? You saw 6 on the court or someone informed you that there were 6 on the court. The only way you can call this is when you saw the 6 on the court at some point.

Peace
The play was over. Foul was called. Play was dead. Single given that the bucket was good. At this point, trail official sounds his whistle and signals T for 6 players on the floor.
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Old Sun Nov 13, 2022, 05:38pm
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Six ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJP View Post
Coming out of a time-out, team A breaks team Bs full court press. Team A scores and gets the foul. Opportunity for a three point play. Ball is dead. It is discovered at this point that team A had/has 6 players on the floor. How should this be handled? Second question. How would it be handled in high school?
From the IAABO Sportorials November/December 2017 issue, article entitled Rules Interpretations and Clarifications from NFHS In-Person Meeting With Theresia Wynns, NFHS Basketball Rules Editor:

More than five players on the court not observed by officials: If Team A has more than five players on the court during a live ball and the officials do not realize it, should the officials charge Team A with a technical foul if the scorer notifies officials of the infraction during the next dead ball period? Answer: No. An on-court official must observe the excess number of players on the court during a live ball and a team having more than five players on the court during a live ball shall be penalized only if the infraction is discovered while being violated.

NCAA Bulletin (Sorry, no date on my hard drive)

In a recent game, six players participated in the game for one team. Several officials and administrators asked for clarification and we are releasing the following play situation:

SITUATION: Team A has six players on the playing court when the ball is made live with five seconds remaining in the game. A1’s successful field goal attempt is in the air when the time expires ending the game. Immediately after the expiration of time and before the officials have left the playing court, one of the officials observes that Team A had six players on the court when the basket was scored. What is the correct ruling?
RULING: The field goal shall count because A6 became a player when the ball became alive (Rule 3-4.1.c). However, the game has not ended since the officials have not left the court, which ends their jurisdiction and approves the score. The officials should award Team B two free throws and the game will continue with an overtime period if both free throws are successful (Rule 2-4.4, 5-7.7. and 10-2.6).

Further Comment: Rule 10-2.6 requires that the sixth player participate when the ball is alive. There is no time limit within which the officials have to recognize and penalize this technical foul. However, the officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize the infraction. A monitor may not be used to obtain such knowledge (Rule 10-2.6, 2-13.2 and 5-7.7).

Hopefully this clarification will assist officials with the understanding and application of these rules. Thank you for your attention to this information. At the very least, this should emphasis why officials must take their time, and do everything that they can possibly do, using good mechanics, to prevent situations like these from happening.


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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Nov 13, 2022 at 05:43pm.
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Old Sun Nov 13, 2022, 05:46pm
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Rabbit Hole ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJP View Post
How would it be handled in high school?
I’m having problems fully understanding the administration of the 10-1-6 (more than five team members participating simultaneously) penalty. If a team has more than five team members participating simultaneously, then a team technical foul is charged. This infraction is penalized if it is discovered by the officials while being violated, in other words, while more than five team members are currently participating as players in the game.

Here’s my problem. I wish that the NFHS was more definitive about what "participating" means, as well as what "while being violated" means. If there are six team members participating, does it matter whether, or not, the ball is dead, live, clock running, clock not running, or if there is, or isn't, a timeout (not an intermission)? What defines whether, or not, a player is participating? Does it have to be during a live ball, clock running, situation? Can it be during a live ball, clock stopped situation, i.e., ball at disposal of free throw shooter? Can it be during a dead ball, clock running situation, i.e. dead ball immediately after a made field goal? How about during a dead ball, clock stopped situation, i.e during a timeout?
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Old Sun Nov 13, 2022, 05:50pm
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Things That Make You Go Hmmm ...

All for NFHS.

A) Head coach of Team B requests, and is granted, a timeout, at which point he immediately complains to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. The sole purpose of his timeout is to call attention to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. Officials, who have been unaware that six team members have been participating up until that point, count six Team A members on the court before they head into their timeout huddle. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

B) Team B head coach yells to nearest official that there are six Team A players participating. Official sounds whistle to stop the action to count the players and discovers that there are six Team A team members on the court during this dead ball, clock stopped, situation. What's the call?

C) Team A has six team members participating, which goes unobserved by the officials. Official calls a travel violation on Team A. There are no substitutions after the whistle. Before administering the throw in, officials observe that Team A has six team members participating. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

D) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. Before bouncing the ball to the free thrower for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

E) The last Team A free throw attempt is successful. The clock hasn't started. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

F) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. After bouncing the ball to the free thrower, and with the ball at the free thrower's disposal for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is live, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

G) Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. What’s the call?

H) Multiple substitutions. All substitutes report and are legally beckoned. Extra team member is confused and stays on court, unnoticed by everybody. Ball put into play. Quick foul occurs. No substitutions. One and one free throws awarded. First free throw made. No substitutions. Extra team member discovered by officials (who don't know when the extra team member entered) during dead ball, clock stopped, after first free throw made while the ball is in the hands of the lead official.

I) After multiple substitutions during which all substitutes reported and were properly beckoned, after the ball becomes live, Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. One of the head coaches is yelling "They have six players on the court, that's a technical foul". Are six team members moving into positions to set up a full court press "participating", especially while the clock is running?

J) Made basket by Team A, immediate time-out by Team A is granted by the officials, officials notice six team members departing the floor for Team A. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. How do you handle it?
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Nov 14, 2022 at 02:14pm.
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Old Sun Nov 13, 2022, 06:17pm
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Participating

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I wish that the NFHS was more definitive about what "participating" means ...
Theresia Wynns, 2017 NFHS Basketball Rules Editor said "excess number of players on the court during a live ball" so maybe participating means "on the court"?

So if (1) on the court, (2) observed, (3) excess, and (4) live ball?

All four parameters means a team technical foul.
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Nov 14, 2022 at 01:19pm.
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Old Sun Nov 13, 2022, 10:31pm
CJP CJP is offline
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Thanks for the responses. For the rest of the story. The officials did not award points to team A and negated the foul. Obviously no free throw for team A. Team B shot the technical foul free throw and was awarded the ball at half court.

To paint a little more of the picture. Team A was down three points with about 1-minute remaining in the 4Q.
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Old Mon Nov 14, 2022, 12:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJP View Post
The play was over. Foul was called. Play was dead. Single given that the bucket was good. At this point, trail official sounds his whistle and signals T for 6 players on the floor.
When you see 6 on the court.

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Old Mon Nov 14, 2022, 09:29am
CJP CJP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
When you see 6 on the court.

Peace
Ok. Did they do the right thing by taking 2 points off the board and erasing a foul?
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Old Mon Nov 14, 2022, 10:09am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJP View Post
Ok. Did they do the right thing by taking 2 points off the board and erasing a foul?
Did they go to review?

For HS, I would say you can't undo what has been done. "Coach, you have too many on the floor". Resume game with A shooting 1. And, with only 10 players!

Now for my eval
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Old Mon Nov 14, 2022, 10:36am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJP View Post
Ok. Did they do the right thing by taking 2 points off the board and erasing a foul?
You never mentioned what they did or did not do. You asked when the T gets enforced. You never said anything about what they did with points or other aspects of the play.

I guess it would depend on when they discovered the 6 players on the court. If they saw it and then killed the play and then a shot went up, yeah I could see not counting the point. If it was not discovered until after a few points were scored, no you cannot take off the points. This is not a correctable error situation at all.

Peace
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Old Mon Nov 14, 2022, 10:59am
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Advantage Not Intended By Rule ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJP View Post
Coming out of a time-out, team A breaks team Bs full court press. Team A scores and gets the foul. Opportunity for a three point play. Ball is dead. It is discovered at this point that team A had/has 6 players on the floor. How should this be handled?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... you cannot take off the points. This is not a correctable error situation at all.
2-10-1: Correctable Errors: Officials may correct an error if a rule is inadvertently set aside and results in:
a. Failure to award a merited free throw.
b. Awarding an unmerited free throw.
c. Permitting a wrong player to attempt a free throw.
d. Attempting a free throw at the wrong basket.
e. Erroneously counting or canceling a score.


Agree with JRutledge, but with some reservation.

Can we use NFHS 2-3: Referee’s Authority?

NFHS 2-3: Referee’s Authority: The referee must make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules.

Not really because this situation is "somewhat" covered in the rules (six on court is a technical foul; not listed as a correctable error, in fact, not only is it not listed as correctable, is it an actual error by the official inadvertently setting aside a rule).

But is the situation (extra player illegal advantage) "specifically" covered?

This sticks in my craw: Purpose and intent: A team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule.
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Nov 14, 2022 at 11:55am.
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Old Mon Nov 14, 2022, 11:13am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
From the IAABO Sportorials November/December 2017 issue, article entitled Rules Interpretations and Clarifications from NFHS In-Person Meeting With Theresia Wynns, NFHS Basketball Rules Editor:

More than five players on the court not observed by officials: If Team A has more than five players on the court during a live ball and the officials do not realize it, should the officials charge Team A with a technical foul if the scorer notifies officials of the infraction during the next dead ball period? Answer: No. An on-court official must observe the excess number of players on the court during a live ball and a team having more than five players on the court during a live ball shall be penalized only if the infraction is discovered while being violated.

NCAA Bulletin (Sorry, no date on my hard drive)

In a recent game, six players participated in the game for one team. Several officials and administrators asked for clarification and we are releasing the following play situation:

SITUATION: Team A has six players on the playing court when the ball is made live with five seconds remaining in the game. A1’s successful field goal attempt is in the air when the time expires ending the game. Immediately after the expiration of time and before the officials have left the playing court, one of the officials observes that Team A had six players on the court when the basket was scored. What is the correct ruling?
RULING: The field goal shall count because A6 became a player when the ball became alive (Rule 3-4.1.c). However, the game has not ended since the officials have not left the court, which ends their jurisdiction and approves the score. The officials should award Team B two free throws and the game will continue with an overtime period if both free throws are successful (Rule 2-4.4, 5-7.7. and 10-2.6).

Further Comment: Rule 10-2.6 requires that the sixth player participate when the ball is alive. There is no time limit within which the officials have to recognize and penalize this technical foul. However, the officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize the infraction. A monitor may not be used to obtain such knowledge (Rule 10-2.6, 2-13.2 and 5-7.7).

Hopefully this clarification will assist officials with the understanding and application of these rules. Thank you for your attention to this information. At the very least, this should emphasis why officials must take their time, and do everything that they can possibly do, using good mechanics, to prevent situations like these from happening.



Billy:

The NCAA Bulletin that you posted above, was that an NCAA Men's or Women's Bulletin?

Thanks,

MTD, Sr.
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Old Mon Nov 14, 2022, 11:30am
CJP CJP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
You never mentioned what they did or did not do. You asked when the T gets enforced. You never said anything about what they did with points or other aspects of the play.

I guess it would depend on when they discovered the 6 players on the court. If they saw it and then killed the play and then a shot went up, yeah I could see not counting the point. If it was not discovered until after a few points were scored, no you cannot take off the points. This is not a correctable error situation at all.

Peace
I asked how it should have been handled. I framed it broadly on purpose to generate some discussion.

I thought I explained it clearly that the 6 players were not discovered until after the foul call.

Last edited by CJP; Mon Nov 14, 2022 at 11:35am.
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