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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 14, 2022, 11:52am
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Citation ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
The NCAA Bulletin that you posted above, was that an NCAA Men's or Women's Bulletin?
Sorry, not being an NCAA guy myself, when I came across it and saved it I failed to correctly cite it (date, source).
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 14, 2022, 12:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Sorry, not being an NCAA guy myself, when I came across it and saved it I failed to correctly cite it (date, source).
It was an NCAA Men's bulletin. I don't know the date but I do remember it coming out after the play that was referenced was shown all over ESPN.

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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 14, 2022, 12:43pm
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Sweep The Floor ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJP View Post
Coming out of a time-out ... team A had/has 6 players on the floor.
We all know who's fault this is.

One of my worst nightmares as an official.

Sometimes we can't control this (player rushing off the bench), but many times we can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
... think back over your 40 years of officiating about which rule is something we as officials always try to prevent from being violated b/c we tend to blame ourselves when it happens.
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I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Nov 14, 2022 at 12:46pm.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 14, 2022, 01:17pm
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CJP's question was per NCAA Women's Basketball Rules.


From the 2021-22 and 2022-23 NCAA Women's Basketball Rules Edition:

R10 (Fouls and Penalties)-S12 (Technical Fouls)-A2 (Administrative Technical Fouls):

A2f: A team shall not have more than five players legally on the playing court to participate after the ball becomes live.
PENALTY (Art. 2.f ): Penalized when the violation occurs after the ball
becomes live. Two free throws awarded to the offended team, followed by a throw-in at the point of interruption. Administrative technical fouls do not count toward the team-foul total.



From the 2022-23 NCAA Women's Basketball Casebook:

R10 (Fouls and Penalties), Approved Ruling 335:

Team A has six players on the playing court when the ball becomes live with five seconds remaining in the game and Team A leading by two points. A1s successful field goal attempt is in the air when the time expires ending the game. Immediately after the expiration of time and before the officials have left the playing court, one of the officials observes that Team A had six players on the court when the basket was scored. What is the correct ruling?
RULING: The field goal shall count because A6 became a player when the ball became live. However, the game has not ended since the officials have not left the visual confines of the playing area and still have jurisdiction. The officials shall award Team B two free throws for the administrative technical foul and the game will continue with an overtime when both free throws are successful. This administrative technical foul does not count toward the team-foul total. The penalty for Rule 10-12.2.f applies only when the sixth player participates when the ball is live. There is no time limit within which the officials must recognize and penalize this infraction. However, the officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize this infraction. Replay may not be used to obtain such knowledge. (Rules 10-12.2.f, 2-4.3, 11-2.1, 3-4.1.c and 5-7.6)



Author's Note (1.0): The 2022-23 NCAA Men's Rules R10-S2-A6 (slightly different Penalty Procedure for returning the Ball to Play) and 2022-23 NCAA Men's Casebook A.R. 286 are the same (word-for-word) as the Women's Rules.


Author's Note (2.0): It should be noted that the wording in the 2022-23 NFHS Basketball Rules R10-S2-A2 is slightly different from the NCAA Men's/Women's Rules:

A team shall not have more than five team members participating simultaneously. Compared to: A team shall not have more than five players legally on the playing court to participate after the ball becomes live.

Billy: This difference between the two Rules does not help answer your question.


Author's (2.1): And from the 2022-23 NFHS Basketball Casebook we have Casebook 10.2.2 SITUATION:

With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials: (a) recognize that A has six players competing, but cannot get the
clock stopped; or (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court. RULING: In (a), since one of the officials had knowledge that Team A had six players participating simultaneously and this was detected prior to time expiring, a technical foul is assessed against Team A. In (b), since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.


Author's Note (2.11): NFHS CB Play 10.2.2(b) is similar to the NCAA Men's/Women's Approved Rulings that I have listed. BUT the RULINGS are different:

NFHS: ... since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

NCAA: There is no time limit within which the officials must recognize and penalize this infraction. However, the officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize this infraction.


The NFHS Ruling states that the Game Official(s) must recognize (inferring that the Game Officials actually observe) the Infraction being committed while the NCAA Ruling states that "the officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize this infraction."

The question is: What is 'personal knowledge'? And how does that make the NCAA Ruling differ from the NFHS Ruling?


The "Better Half" and I are leaving for a tropical vacation on Thursday and will not return until the Monday after Thanksgiving and I will not be taking a laptop with me; I will take my 'smart' phone and my Kindle but I really do not plan to use them very much, so all history lessons will have wait until I return home. I plan to send an email regarding CJP's Original Situation (NCAA Women's Rules) to Jon Levinson, NCAA Women's Basketball Secretary-Rules Editor, before we leave, meaning I doubt that I will receive a response from Jon before we leave on vacation.

I am going to wish everyone Happy Thanksgiving! And to Jeff: GO BUCKEYES!! BEAT xichigan!!; I already have a YSU win over WIU this Fall, !

MTD, Sr.
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Ohio High School Athletic Association
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 14, 2022, 01:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Sorry, not being an NCAA guy myself, when I came across it and saved it I failed to correctly cite it (date, source).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
It was an NCAA Men's bulletin. I don't know the date but I do remember it coming out after the play that was referenced was shown all over ESPN.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Billy and Raymond:

I just posted a "short", , comment with the relevant NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's Rules and Casebook/Approved Ruling citations.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. Raymond, please PM about using Tapatalk and how you use it from your phone. Thanks.
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Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 14, 2022, 01:25pm
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Participate ...

10.5.3 SITUATION: A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is erroneously permitted to remain in the game for another two minutes before the scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of the disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5 reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the game. RULING: In (a), as soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties are assessed. In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules. If detected after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul charged directly to the head coach resulting in the loss of coaching-box privileges. The player is immediately removed from the game and Team B is awarded two free-throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note 2)
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Nov 14, 2022 at 01:28pm.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 14, 2022, 02:13pm
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Rhetorical ???

Theses are not rhetorical questions:

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1049252
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 14, 2022, 02:25pm
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Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy ...

F) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. After bouncing the ball to the free thrower, and with the ball at the free thrower's disposal for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is live, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

I'll go first because I can go cherry picking. This one is easy.

1) Six players, one in excess.
2) Observed by on-court official.
3) Six players are on the court.
4) The ball is live.

Team technical foul. Clear the lane. Give Team A shooter his second free throw. Two free throws by any Team B player(s). Team B ball at the division line.

All of my other questions (A-E, F-J) involve dead balls, two involve dead balls and running clocks.

No penalty?

Just "fix" it?

Just doesn't seem right, especially the two clock running situations?
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Nov 14, 2022 at 03:54pm.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 15, 2022, 11:46am
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Ounce Of Prevention ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
We all know who's fault this is ... Sometimes we can't control this (player rushing off the bench), but many times we can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
... think back over your 40 years of officiating about which rule is something we as officials always try to prevent from being violated b/c we tend to blame ourselves when it happens.
From my pregame: Before throwins sweep the floor, count five players each team, check the table for substitutes, check team fouls toward bonus situations (communicate with partner on six and nine), good eye contact before putting ball in play. A hand up in the air by the off official means not ready.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 15, 2022, 01:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... A hand up in the air by the off official means not ready.[/I]
This is why I tell off-officials not to raise their hand to mirror the chop until the throw-in is at disposal. If they put it up early, administering official thinks they're indicating to not to begin the throw-in.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 15, 2022, 02:18pm
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Mirror Chop ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
This is why I tell off-officials not to raise their hand to mirror the chop until the throw-in is at disposal. If they put it up early, administering official thinks they're indicating to not to begin the throw-in.
Great point.

Here in two-person 100% IAABO mechanics Connecticut, the non-administering official doesn't mirror the chop.

In our rare three-person games, a non-administering official has the option to mirror the chop if the timer may not have a good look at the administering official.

Some of us will "off label" mirror the chop in a two-person game if the timer does not have a good look at the administering official and there are only a few seconds or fractions of a second left, especially in a middle school game that may be timed by a student.

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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Nov 15, 2022 at 05:20pm.
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