6 players on the court - women's college

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I wish that the NFHS was more definitive about what "participating" means ...

Theresia Wynns, 2017 NFHS Basketball Rules Editor said "excess number of players on the court during a live ball" so maybe participating means "on the court"?

So if (1) on the court, (2) observed, (3) excess, and (4) live ball?

All four parameters means a team technical foul.

[CJP]

Thanks for the responses. For the rest of the story. The officials did not award points to team A and negated the foul. Obviously no free throw for team A. Team B shot the technical foul free throw and was awarded the ball at half court.

To paint a little more of the picture. Team A was down three points with about 1-minute remaining in the 4Q.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

CJP's question was per NCAA Women's Basketball Rules.


From the 2021-22 and 2022-23 NCAA Women's Basketball Rules Edition:

R10 (Fouls and Penalties)-S12 (Technical Fouls)-A2 (Administrative Technical Fouls):

A2f: A team shall not have more than five players legally on the playing court to participate after the ball becomes live.
PENALTY (Art. 2.f ): Penalized when the violation occurs after the ball
becomes live. Two free throws awarded to the offended team, followed by a throw-in at the point of interruption. Administrative technical fouls do not count toward the team-foul total.


From the 2022-23 NCAA Women's Basketball Casebook:

R10 (Fouls and Penalties), Approved Ruling 335:

Team A has six players on the playing court when the ball becomes live with five seconds remaining in the game and Team A leading by two points. A1’s successful field goal attempt is in the air when the time expires ending the game. Immediately after the expiration of time and before the officials have left the playing court, one of the officials observes that Team A had six players on the court when the basket was scored. What is the correct ruling?
RULING: The field goal shall count because A6 became a player when the ball became live. However, the game has not ended since the officials have not left the visual confines of the playing area and still have jurisdiction. The officials shall award Team B two free throws for the administrative technical foul and the game will continue with an overtime when both free throws are successful. This administrative technical foul does not count toward the team-foul total. The penalty for Rule 10-12.2.f applies only when the sixth player participates when the ball is live. There is no time limit within which the officials must recognize and penalize this infraction. However, the officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize this infraction. Replay may not be used to obtain such knowledge. (Rules 10-12.2.f, 2-4.3, 11-2.1, 3-4.1.c and 5-7.6)


Author's Note (1.0): The 2022-23 NCAA Men's Rules R10-S2-A6 (slightly different Penalty Procedure for returning the Ball to Play) and 2022-23 NCAA Men's Casebook A.R. 286 are the same (word-for-word) as the Women's Rules.


Author's Note (2.0): It should be noted that the wording in the 2022-23 NFHS Basketball Rules R10-S2-A2 is slightly different from the NCAA Men's/Women's Rules:

A team shall not have more than five team members participating simultaneously. Compared to: A team shall not have more than five players legally on the playing court to participate after the ball becomes live.

Billy: This difference between the two Rules does not help answer your question.


Author's (2.1): And from the 2022-23 NFHS Basketball Casebook we have Casebook 10.2.2 SITUATION:

With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials: (a) recognize that A has six players competing, but cannot get the
clock stopped; or (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court. RULING: In (a), since one of the officials had knowledge that Team A had six players participating simultaneously and this was detected prior to time expiring, a technical foul is assessed against Team A. In (b), since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

Author's Note (2.11): NFHS CB Play 10.2.2(b) is similar to the NCAA Men's/Women's Approved Rulings that I have listed. BUT the RULINGS are different:

NFHS: ... since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

NCAA: There is no time limit within which the officials must recognize and penalize this infraction. However, the officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize this infraction.

The NFHS Ruling states that the Game Official(s) must recognize (inferring that the Game Officials actually observe) the Infraction being committed while the NCAA Ruling states that "the officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize this infraction."

The question is: What is 'personal knowledge'? And how does that make the NCAA Ruling differ from the NFHS Ruling?


The "Better Half" and I are leaving for a tropical vacation on Thursday and will not return until the Monday after Thanksgiving and I will not be taking a laptop with me; I will take my 'smart' phone and my Kindle but I really do not plan to use them very much, so all history lessons will have wait until I return home. I plan to send an email regarding CJP's Original Situation (NCAA Women's Rules) to Jon Levinson, NCAA Women's Basketball Secretary-Rules Editor, before we leave, meaning I doubt that I will receive a response from Jon before we leave on vacation.

I am going to wish everyone Happy Thanksgiving! And to Jeff: GO BUCKEYES!! BEAT xichigan!!; I already have a YSU win over WIU this Fall, !

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

10.5.3 SITUATION: A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is erroneously permitted to remain in the game for another two minutes before the scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of the disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5 reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the game. RULING: In (a), as soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties are assessed. In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules. If detected after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul charged directly to the head coach resulting in the loss of coaching-box privileges. The player is immediately removed from the game and Team B is awarded two free-throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note 2)

[BillyMac]

Theses are not rhetorical questions:

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1049252