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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 29, 2022, 11:46am
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You're saying that officials don't call back a bad toss because they wouldn't know how to recognize it?
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 29, 2022, 11:49am
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Small Number ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
You're saying that officials don't call back a bad toss because they wouldn't know how to recognize it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
A small number of officials don't know what a bad toss is ...
... especially in a two person game where the non-tosser has so many things to look for, possibly all ten players, and the ball.

Of course, not knowing, and not seeing, may be different things, but I'm pretty sure that there can be some overlap.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Mar 29, 2022 at 12:13pm.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 29, 2022, 12:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
You're saying that officials don't call back a bad toss because they wouldn't know how to recognize it?
That the benefit of calling it back is outweighed by the cost of calling it back, unless it's egregious. I didn't see the play in question so I won't comment specifically.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 29, 2022, 01:05pm
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Interesting. Yes, the timers will have to be reset and everyone will have to be brought back to the circle. However, it happens anyway when the tossed ball is not touched. I've never been on TV, so I don't know if TV officials think it's not worth the time taken.

Back to the OP, congratulations and good luck to the Final Four officials.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 29, 2022, 01:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Interesting. Yes, the timers will have to be reset and everyone will have to be brought back to the circle.

More costs than that -- and it has almost nothing to do with "being on TV" specifically
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 29, 2022, 01:21pm
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Embarrass The Tosser ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
That the benefit of calling it back is outweighed by the cost of calling it back, unless it's egregious.
Agree. Calling a toss back will only draw added attention to a less than perfect toss and might embarrass the tosser. Been in this situation several times as the non-tosser. Usually seems best to just play on, seldom getting complaints from players, coaches, or fans.

If I'm good friends with my partner, at halftime, I might say, "That wasn't the best toss". Seldom get partners asking why I didn't call the toss back, usually just get, "Yes, it wasn't my best toss". Really good friends might reply sarcastically, "Well then, why didn't you call it back?", which starts the ball busting and chain yanking, and after a few laughs, we get on to more serious issues to work on in the second half.

The rare times that I do call it (egregious) back, I will often apologize to my partner, "Sorry I had to call your toss back, it was real bad", to which I will often get a reply, "Yeah, it was pretty pathetic. Thanks".

It's a fine line ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
...some have described jump balls as microbursts of mayhem.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Mar 29, 2022 at 01:32pm.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 30, 2022, 10:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Why not? A bad toss is a bad way to start the game.

If the referee is not confident in his toss, he can let either umpire handle it. That might avoid the need to call back tosses in the first place.
Actually the D3 National Coordinator insisted that the everyone adhere to their positions as there were many people whom he didn't know when he watched them in person or on film. This way he could tell who was whom based on the information he received from that coordinator.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 30, 2022, 11:18am
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Interesting. This means that the Referee assigned in Arbiter always tossed the ball during the D3 National Tournament. Hopefully all the tosses went off without any hitches.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 30, 2022, 11:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Interesting. This means that the Referee assigned in Arbiter always tossed the ball during the D3 National Tournament. Hopefully all the tosses went off without any hitches.
Not necessarily. Jim Haney's comments were mostly about who is assigned the games during the season and he does not know everyone. I am sure if he assigned a game in the D3 tournament, he is likely aware of who he assigned on some level. And this was said a few years ago. I believe he has access to more information, But if you are U2 and you toss the ball, then he might think the R is the person that tossed the ball.

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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 30, 2022, 11:51am
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I don't know why MultipleSports brought this up, then. Another digression within a digression.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 30, 2022, 11:55am
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Starting Periods ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... if you are U2 and you toss the ball, then he might think the R is the person that tossed the ball.
Is college like high school, where the referee, and only the referee, puts the ball at the disposal of the inbounder to start the second, third, and fourth periods (or the second half for college men)?

Also, based on the context in the above posts, I'm assuming that in college, like in high school, the referee has the option of assigning the jump ball toss to one of the umpire(s).
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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Mar 30, 2022 at 12:55pm.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 30, 2022, 12:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Is college like high school, where the referee, and only the referee, puts the ball at the disposal of the inbounder to start the second, third, and fourth periods (or the second half for college men)?

Also, based on the context in the above posts, I'm assuming that in college, like in high school, the referee has the option of assigning the jump ball toss to one of the umpire(s).
That's not an absolute in college or HS.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 30, 2022, 01:03pm
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High School ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
That's not an absolute in ... HS.
NFHS 2-5-2: The referee must: Administer the alternating-possession throw-in to start the second, third and fourth quarters.

Raymond may be referring to something less than usual, like technical foul free throws, and the ball at the division line, to start a period (which would not be an alternating possession throwin), thus not an absolute?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Mar 30, 2022 at 01:12pm.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 30, 2022, 01:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
NFHS 2-5-2: The referee must: Administer the alternating-possession throw-in to start the second, third and fourth quarters.

Raymond may be referring to something less than usual, like technical foul free throws, and the ball at the division line, to start a period (which would not be an alternating possession throwin), thus not an absolute?
I thought we broke you of the habit of speaking for others.

I've done plenty of games in college and HS where the referee did not administer throw-ins at the beginning of periods.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 30, 2022, 01:34pm
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Contrarian ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I thought we broke you of the habit of speaking for others.
Sometimes I'm forced to do that (assume) when confronted with a cryptic, or incomplete post, leaving questions unanswered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I've done plenty of games in ... HS where the referee did not administer throw-ins at the beginning of periods.
Why not? Any other usually referee duties they did not do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I've done plenty of games in ... HS where the referee did not administer throw-ins at the beginning of periods.
I have too, contrary to the rule.

In almost all cases they were AAU, recreation, travel, middle school games, etc., not assigned by my high school commissioner, with very "relaxed" formalities. No pregame conference. No scorebook checking. No pregame coaches meeting.

In other cases (assigned by my high school commissioner), though I was assigned as the referee, I decided unilaterally (allowed by local custom and tradition) to allow inexperienced young officials (often rookies) to get some experience as a referee (lead a pregame conference, check scorebook, running pregame coaches/captains meeting, toss, and/or alternating possession starting period throwin administration.

Doing any of these tasks could possibly identify the referee, even if not assigned as such. Doing all of these pretty much identifies a referee, even if not assigned as such. "You be the referee tonight", not sure how official that is, may vary locally?

Also, until we (locally) started using Arbiter, and were assigned with paper and pencil through snail mail, umpires and referees were not assigned for any subvarsity games, it was decided when meeting at the site, usually based by seniority, or by who did what when partners last worked together, a somewhat fluid procedure.

But by rule, it's the referee who administers alternating possession throwins to "normally" begin periods, as well as initiate a pregame conference (by mechanics manual), check scorebook (implied by rule, also by mechanics manual), choosing tosser (rule), running pregame coaches meeting (rule), and a few other things (rules).

Don't follow all such rules and mechanics? No problem. When in Rome ...

Also, one probably needs to define referee on a local level. Is it one who is assigned to be the referee, or is it one who performs some, many, or all, the game duties usually associated with a referee? Some Forum members may have different definitions.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Apr 01, 2022 at 09:56am.
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