Shot Clocks

[ilyazhito]

On a jump ball and a rebound, there is no team control. This is because no team control is possible while the ball is dead (before a jump ball), or during a try (which has to.precede a rebound). Before a turnover, there is no team control if the ball is loose. This is why loose ball fouls are a separate category under NCAAM rules.

Once the ball becomes live on a throw-in, the team throwing in the ball has control until the ball becomes dead again, assuming possession is not lost in the interim (via a turnover, try, foul, violation, or jump ball situation [not all situations that trigger the possession arrow are caused by a held ball]). The team control that happens when the ball is at the disposal of a team is the same as team control when the ball is live in bounds. The touch inbounds signifies that the ball is inbounds, action proceeds, and therefore game and shot clocks will start.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

On a jump ball and a rebound, there is no team control. This is because no team control is possible while the ball is dead (before a jump ball), or during a try (which has to.precede a rebound). Before a turnover, there is no team control if the ball is loose. This is why loose ball fouls are a separate category under NCAAM rules.

Once the ball becomes live on a throw-in, the team throwing in the ball has control until the ball becomes dead again, assuming possession is not lost in the interim (via a turnover, try, foul, violation, or jump ball situation [not all situations that trigger the possession arrow are caused by a held ball]). The team control that happens when the ball is at the disposal of a team is the same as team control when the ball is live in bounds. The touch inbounds signifies that the ball is inbounds, action proceeds, and therefore game and shot clocks will start.

Are you talking NCAA or NFHS?

[ilyazhito]

This refers to NCAA rules. NFHS with a shot clock is different, because there team control on a throw-in exists only for the purpose of fouls. There is also no loose ball foul under NFHS rules. However, my points about team control on a jump ball and free throw remain the same.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

On a jump ball and a rebound, there is no team control. This is because no team control is possible while the ball is dead (before a jump ball), or during a try (which has to.precede a rebound). Before a turnover, there is no team control if the ball is loose. This is why loose ball fouls are a separate category under NCAAM rules.

Where did you get the statement that "before a turnover, there is no team control if the ball is loose"?

There is team control, but there is an exception to the team control foul in regards to shooting free throws if it's a loose ball foul.

Rule 4-15-2.a.
3. Loose-ball foul. A loose-ball foul is a common foul that is committed by a player when any of the conditions in Rule 4-24 occur. A loose-ball foul on an offensive player is also a team-control foul.

Rule 10-1-18 Penalty
c. Bonus free throw for: Each common foul committed by a team, beginning with that team’s seventh foul during the half, provided that the first attempt is successful. This includes team-control fouls which occur during a loose ball such as a fumble, deflection, or release of the ball for a try. This does not include team-control fouls when the ball is being passed between teammates and there is no deflection.


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[bob jenkins]

That "loose ball foul" stuff is NCAAM only. NCAAW mirrors NFHS in this regard.

[ilyazhito]

It is weird that NCAAM chooses to keep the NFHS definition of team control (loose ball fouls by A are team control fouls), yet has teams shoot free throws on those fouls if in the bonus, which is NBA practice. It is just as strange as NFHS declaring that there is team control on throw-ins, but only for the purpose of fouls by A.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

It is weird that NCAAM chooses to keep the NFHS definition of team control ...

ilyazhito: Thanks for trying to explain, but I'm still confused.

Are you saying that in NCAA once an inbounder has been handed/bounced the ball, player/team control begins (just like NFHS), and this team control continues with the inbounds pass, continuing to an inbounds touch (no possession, holding, dribbling, needed, unlike the NFHS), only ending with the other team gaining team control, steal, violation, foul, timeout, etc. (like the NFHS), and that this team control covers all other rule aspects (ten seconds, back court, team control fouls, shot clock, etc., unlike the NFHS)?

[ilyazhito]

In NCAA, team control begins when the ball is at the disposal of the team and continues when the ball is touched inbounds. Team control does not change unless possession changes (there is a steal, a player turns the ball over, or a try is attempted) or the ball becomes dead. NCAA team control, unlike NFHS team control, does not exist only for the purpose of fouls. Because NCAA team control starts with a team being in disposal of the ball for a throw-in, and continues with the inbounds pass, the 10-second count and shot clock start together when the ball is touched inbounds.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

In NCAA, team control begins when the ball is at the disposal of the team and continues when the ball is touched inbounds. Team control does not change unless possession changes (there is a steal, a player turns the ball over, or a try is attempted) or the ball becomes dead. NCAA team control, unlike NFHS team control, does not exist only for the purpose of fouls. Because NCAA team control starts with a team being in disposal of the ball for a throw-in, and continues with the inbounds pass, the 10-second count and shot clock start together when the ball is touched inbounds.

Is any of that different from NFHS WHEN the shot clock is used?

from nfhs.org:
OFFICIALS' GENERAL DUTIES

Use the shot clock to administer the 10-second backcourt count (9-8). Use a silent, visible 10-second count when there is no shot clock visible.

5. Start the shot clock when:
A player inbounds legally touches or is touched by the ball on a throw-in; or
A team initially gains control after a jump ball or unsuccessful try for goal; or
Control of a loose ball is gained after a jump ball; or
Unsuccessful try for goal.

[ilyazhito]

It depends on the rules your state uses. MD still uses the NFHS visible 10-second count for boys, but DC uses the shot clock to administer the 10-second count. Private schools in my area, at least for boys, also use the shot clock to administer the 10-second count.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

In NCAA, team control begins when the ball is at the disposal of the team and continues when the ball is touched inbounds. Team control does not change unless possession changes (there is a steal, a player turns the ball over, or a try is attempted) or the ball becomes dead. NCAA team control, unlike NFHS team control, does not exist only for the purpose of fouls. Because NCAA team control starts with a team being in disposal of the ball for a throw-in, and continues with the inbounds pass, the 10-second count and shot clock start together when the ball is touched inbounds.

You still must have player control somewhere on the court before you can have any type of back court violation. So even though there's team control, and a touch in the back court then touch in the front court and then a touch in the back court or any combination of touches that brings the ball from the front court to the back court, there's still no back court violation.

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[ilyazhito]

Are you talking about the violation known as "over and back", or the 10-second violation? You could have a 10-second violation without player control, but not an "over-and-back" violation.

AFAIK, a player with frontcourt status has to possess the ball, and then either take it into the backcourt, or pass the ball.to a player with backcourt status to trigger that violation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

In NCAA, team control begins when the ball is at the disposal of the team and continues when the ball is touched inbounds.

ilyazhito: So the NCAA team control throw-in rule is much different from the NFHS team control throw-in rule?

If so, I now "get it".

NFHS 2017-18 Basketball Points of Emphasis
Team control, throw-in. The relevance of team control during a throw-in only applies when a member of the throw- in team fouls. Such fouls shall be ruled team control fouls. Team control during a throw-in is NOT intended to be the same as player control/team control inbounds. Team control inbounds is established when a player from either team who has inbound status gains control of the ball. During the throw-in, 10-seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc., are NOT factors as there has yet to be player control/team control obtained inbounds.

[ilyazhito]

Yes, the NCAA version of team control starts with the ball being at the disposal of the team for the throw-in, and ends on a change of possession or dead ball. That said, for a backcourt (not a 10-second) violation, player control is required. This is because the ball must first obtain frontcourt status and then achieve backcourt status.

Usually that happens when a player crosses the division line and either retreats back over the division line, or else passes to someone who has not yet crossed the division line.

For a 10-second violation, team control, but not player control is required. A common example is when there is a pass with the shot clock at 20 seconds, and the ball is still airborne. That is a 10-second violation. A held ball awarded to the offense with 20 seconds is another example of a 10-second violation without player control, because the offense would be entitled to possession in this scenario, but could not legally put the ball into play without committing a violation.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

ilyazhito: So the NCAA team control throw-in rule is much different from the NFHS team control throw-in rule?

If so, I now "get it".

NFHS 2017-18 Basketball Points of Emphasis
Team control, throw-in. The relevance of team control during a throw-in only applies when a member of the throw- in team fouls. Such fouls shall be ruled team control fouls. Team control during a throw-in is NOT intended to be the same as player control/team control inbounds. Team control inbounds is established when a player from either team who has inbound status gains control of the ball. During the throw-in, 10-seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc., are NOT factors as there has yet to be player control/team control obtained inbounds.

I think yoiu meant is NOT much different -- because it isn't.

And, you can 't use a 2017-18 POE to apply to a shot clock situation because NFHS didn't have a shot-clock in 2017-18. Obviously that POE would need to be adjusted to reflect that TC DOES apply to 10-second violations when the shot clock is being used.