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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 19, 2022, 12:09pm
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Incorrectly charged technical foul

Looking for some feedback on a messed up situation.

A4 dunks during the pregame. The officials observe this and assess a technical foul. However, there is disagreement about how to charge the foul. The R ends up having it recorded as only a team technical foul along with an indirect to the HC.

During the second quarter A4 and B2 have a verbal confrontation and a double technical foul is called.

At halftime the crew looks in the rules book and sees that the technical for the pregame dunk should have been charged to A4.

What should they do?
DQ A4 prior to the start of the third quarter or deem the wrongly charged T something which cannot be changed at this point?
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Old Sat Feb 19, 2022, 12:17pm
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Mistake ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
What should they do?
Definitely isn't a correctable error, thus no time limitations.

Could it be a bookkeeping error, or is that pushing that envelope too far?

2-3?

10-5-1-I Bench Technical: The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel, including the head coach, must not: Grasping either basket except to prevent injury; dunking or attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball. Penalty: The foul is charged to the offender and also charged indirectly to the head coach.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Feb 19, 2022 at 12:40pm.
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Old Sat Feb 19, 2022, 01:10pm
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After a fourth personal foul, if you find out later it was actually the offenders fifth personal foul, that player is then disqualified. I dont see how the situation would be any different when you found out after the fact that the first technical foul you charged was actually the second.


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Old Sat Feb 19, 2022, 03:13pm
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And Scene ...

"Hey BillyMac. How can you do that? He is my best player and now he can't play in the second half. If I had known this at the beginning of the game I would have warned him to be less aggressive and I would have reigned him in during the game. Your mistake screwed my team. You f*****g suck."
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)
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Old Sat Feb 19, 2022, 03:15pm
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Followup Discussion ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... "You f*****g suck."
"What the f**k? My best player sits on bench for the rest of the game and now I have to go and sit on the cold bus in the parking lot?
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Old Sat Feb 19, 2022, 04:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
" You f*****g suck."
You're right, coach.
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Old Sat Feb 19, 2022, 07:27pm
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Merci Beaucoup ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
"You're right, coach ...
... and thank you".
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Old Sat Feb 19, 2022, 09:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
"Hey BillyMac. How can you do that? He is my best player and now he can't play in the second half. If I had known this at the beginning of the game I would have warned him to be less aggressive and I would have reigned him in during the game. Your mistake screwed my team. You f*****g suck."
Coach is ejected, call game administration to escort him out. If he won't leave, call the police officer.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 20, 2022, 01:24am
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Billy, I sought serious input from the forum on a situation for a friend and you sidetracked the thread. You do f***ing suck.
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Old Sun Feb 20, 2022, 02:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
What should they do?
DQ A4 prior to the start of the third quarter or deem the wrongly charged T something which cannot be changed at this point?
Ok, sorry to bring in a different sport (and different rules, obviously), but there might be a piece or two of good information contained therein.

From the USA Hockey casebook: May the Referee change an assessed penalty any time after play resumes if it is realized that a penalty was incorrectly assessed according to the playing rules?

No. Rule References 502(a and e).

The Referee may not add, change, or delete a penalty after play has resumed following penalty assessment. This includes after a game. If a rule has been misapplied, the Referee is obligated to inform the governing body so that a modification could be possible under Supplementary Discipline (Rule 410).

However, the Referee should change any clerical error noted on the scoresheet prior to signing the sheet. For example, if the Referee properly assessed a game misconduct penalty, but it was incorrectly recorded on the scoresheet as a misconduct, this should be corrected prior to signing the scoresheet.

= = =

The crew misapplied rule 10-5-1-i by not charging the TF directly to the offender for the pre-game dunk, but at least charged it indirectly to the HC, resulting in the loss of coaching-box privileges. Ruling this a Team Technical Foul is also misapplying a rule, as there is no provision to penalize a pre-game dunk in 10-2 (and any foul in this section does not cause the coach to lose the coaching box).

Since it is not a clerical error (which can be fixed anytime before the Referee approves the final score), and it is not a correctable error as in 2-10, my opinion is that the 'statute of limitations' would expire after the ball becomes live following the administration of the last part of the penalty (the division line throw-in). "Retroactively" assessing the TF to A4, due to a crew error of this kind, is unfair to A4.

If the crew had inadvertently assessed the TF to A14 and it was truly A4, that is 'fixable' even if it results in A4's disqualification for being A4's second TF.
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Old Sun Feb 20, 2022, 08:25am
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This would probably be a good question to send to Indianapolis, because confusion over whether the player is charged with a T for a pre-game dunk is not all that uncommon. Theres also often confusion over whether or not its indirect to the HC.

Youd get the core question answered, and perhaps inspire a helpful case play or interp along the way.


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Old Sun Feb 20, 2022, 10:30am
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Impact Of Change ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Billy, I sought serious input from the forum on a situation for a friend and you sidetracked the thread.
It was my attempt to humorously (obviously failed) explain what could possibly happen if officials decided to change (there is no statute of limitations here) the team technical foul to a bench technical foul coming out of halftime.

This would be a "high impact, high emotion" situation.

We have some varsity coaches here that would react in a manner very similar to the manner that I facetiously quoted.

Remember George Brett coming out of the dugout during the pine tar incident?

Odd rule "surprises", especially ones with so much impact, can really rile up both players and coaches.

Sorry if I sidetracked the thread, but I'm pretty sure that the impact of the change could affect the decision of some officials to make the change, or to not make the change, to remain silent, or to speak up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin View Post
"Retroactively" assessing the TF to A4, due to a crew error of this kind, is unfair to A4.
As for me, knowing the possible impact, I think that I would make the change, and live with the repercussions, trying to be as patient as humanly possible with the impacted, possibly very angry, coach.
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I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Feb 20, 2022 at 03:48pm.
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Old Sun Feb 20, 2022, 10:34am
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Correctable Mistake ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Definitely isn't a correctable error, thus no time limitations. Could it be a bookkeeping error, or is that pushing that envelope too far?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin View Post
Since it is not a clerical error (which can be fixed anytime before the Referee approves the final score), and it is not a correctable error as in 2-10 ...
Agree on both.

Default to 2-3: The referee must make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules.

But what's the right, or best, decision? Ay, there's the rub.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Feb 20, 2022 at 11:30am.
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Old Sun Feb 20, 2022, 10:56am
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Core Question ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
... because confusion over whether the player is charged with a T for a pre-game dunk is not all that uncommon. There’s also often confusion over whether or not it’s indirect to the HC.
Confusion due to the failure of the NFHS to explain sufficiently? Disagree. The officials just kicked the rule.

10-5-1-I Bench Technical: The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel, including the head coach, must not: Grasping either basket except to prevent injury; dunking or attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball. Penalty: The foul is charged to the offender and also charged indirectly to the head coach.

4.8.2 SITUATION: (b) a Team A member dunks during the pregame warm-ups. RULING: In (b), the foul counts toward disqualification and it counts as one of the seven team fouls to reach the bonus. In (b), a technical foul is also charged indirectly to Team A’s head coach resulting in the loss of coaching-box privileges. (10-3-3)

6.4.1 SITUATION A: Twelve minutes before the game is scheduled to start, team member A1 dunks the ball and is charged with a technical foul. RULING: The game will be started by awarding Team B two free throws for A1’s technical foul.

10.5.1 SITUATION E: Fifteen minutes before the game is scheduled to start, team member A1 dunks. Two minutes later A2 dunks. RULING: A1 and A2 are both charged with a technical foul. In addition, the head coach is charged indirectly with a technical foul for each act. The two fouls are team fouls for purpose of reaching the bonus. When dunking occurs during the pregame practice period the official notifies the team member and the head coach, but does not sound the whistle. If the game is played in a state which utilizes the optional coaching box, the coach should be informed that he/she has lost the privilege of using the coaching box for the entire game. (10-4-1i)


Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
This would probably be a good question to send to Indianapolis ... You’d get the core question answered, and perhaps inspire a helpful case play or interp along the way.
Core question here is, once the error (mistake) is made, can the error (mistake) be corrected?

Should
it be corrected?

It's definitely not a correctable error, and probably not a bookkeeping error. So what is it? That might be worth an annual interpretation, or a caseplay.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Feb 20, 2022 at 02:13pm.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 20, 2022, 11:03am
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Odd Rule Surprises Rile Up Players And Coaches ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Remember George Brett coming out of the dugout during the pine tar incident? Odd rule "surprises" can really rile up players and coaches.
1983. For the young'uns.

Enjoy.

__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Feb 20, 2022 at 02:13pm.
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