Incorrectly charged technical foul

[Mike Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Did the timer at some point notice that the scorer did not record a delay of game warning and asked them about it? If so, yes they should get with the crew chief at some point.

I hope it's different where you are, Ray, but I could almost bet that 10 of 10 timers & scorekeepers I've had on my crew wouldn't know anything about assessing a delay warning along with the IPF unless an official specifically said so.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

I hope it's different where you are, Ray, but I could almost bet that 10 of 10 that timers & scorekeepers I've had on my crew wouldn't know anything about assessing a delay warning along with the IPF unless an official specifically said so.

I'm going by FlasherZ's situation. He should have at some point brought it up to the on-court crew.

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[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I'm going by FlasherZ's situation. He should have at some point brought it up to the on-court crew.

This is a great take-away. More table officials should have the courage to share information with floor officials. Many of them feel that they don’t have the authority to do so. As floor officials, we can help with this by ingratiating ourselves with the table personnel before the game. It’s important for them to feel empowered as members of the crew. True, floor officials always get the final say, but I’ll never turn down helpful information.


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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

I still maintain that if the crew misapplies a rule, there is a point when it becomes too late to penalize.

What is that point?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

What if this was "discovered" two minutes into the first period? Too late?

What if nobody was going to be immediately disqualified?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

For the first half, A4 is neither charged with any additional technical fouls nor any personal fouls.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

As floor officials, we can help with this by ingratiating ourselves with the table personnel before the game.

Had a great, veteran partner who, as the referee, when checking the scorebook pregame, would always introduce himself and learn the names of the timer, home scorekeeper, and visitor scorekeeper, and address them by name throughout the game.

On the other hand ...

BillyMac: "Hey fella. Put your damn cell phone away."

BillyMac: "Hey pal. Look up at me when I report fouls".

BillyMac: "Hey buddy. How many team fouls?".

Now, where are my reading glasses?

[FlasherZ]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I'm going by FlasherZ's situation. He should have at some point brought it up to the on-court crew.

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

This is a great take-away. More table officials should have the courage to share information with floor officials.

We're digressing from the original point of the post, but I'd like to address this.

Yes, I could have stopped the inbounds to have an official come over to notify him. However, the official scorer was correct, the two officials were opposite side (nowhere near the table), we had a student volunteer scoreboard operator without a lot of expertise, and coaches are told to know their situation and not rely upon the scoreboard for anything but time and the score (especially in junior high games). So among all the other things going on, it didn't rank in priority to call over the officials to note that we corrected the team fouls on the scoreboard.

It's a junior high school game with 2-man court crew, student timer, and unpaid father as a scorekeeper. I have the courage to share information with the floor officials, because I believe what crosscountry wrote, above, but there are many times I've gotten the holier-than-thou attitude from game officials. At halftime of one game this year, "DON'T SWITCH THE ARROW UNTIL I'VE TOLD YOU TO!!!" was literally yelled at me after I noted that I had already switched it (and we keep the backup arrow on the scoreboard as well, which isn't subject to switching at halftime).

In fact, many of those officials don't even know that I have done my share of officiating games. The ones that do, know that they have a third man sitting at the table to help them out and we get along really well. Others feel like they have to "own the show". Those that consider the table crew partners are good officials... there are too many that do not consider them partners.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by FlasherZ

We're digressing from the original point of the post, but I'd like to address this.

Yes, I could have stopped the inbounds to have an official come over to notify him. However, the official scorer was correct, the two officials were opposite side (nowhere near the table), we had a student volunteer scoreboard operator without a lot of expertise, and coaches are told not to know their situation and not rely upon the scoreboard for anything but time and the score (especially in junior high games). So among all the other things going on, it didn't rank in priority to call over the officials to note that we corrected the team fouls on the scoreboard.

It's a junior high school game with 2-man court crew, student timer, and unpaid father as a scorekeeper. I have the courage to share information with the floor officials, because I believe what crosscountry wrote, above, but there are many times I've gotten the holier-than-thou attitude from game officials. At halftime of one game this year, "DON'T SWITCH THE ARROW UNTIL I'VE TOLD YOU TO!!!" was literally yelled at me after I noted that I had already switched it (and we keep the backup arrow on the scoreboard as well, which isn't subject to switching at halftime).

In fact, many of those officials don't even know that I have done my share of officiating games. The ones that do, know that they have a third man sitting at the table to help them out and we get along really well. Others feel like they have to "own the show". Those that consider the table crew partners are good officials... there are too many that do not consider them partners.

If you had informed me, I would have thanked you then informed the offending team we had added a team foul to their count, before putting the ball in play. Of course, when I call a technical foul, I also take time to ensure the table personnel know it is also a team foul, and if applicable, a personal foul.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Looking for some feedback on a messed up situation. What should they do?

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

... serious input from the Forum on a situation for a friend ...

Nevadaref: We've all had three days to ponder this.

What say you?

What would you advise your friend?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by FlasherZ

... student volunteer scoreboard operator without a lot of expertise, and coaches are told not to know their situation and not rely upon the scoreboard for anything but time and the score (especially in junior high games).

Almost all of my middle school games don't have team fouls on scoreboards, and many have student timekeepers and/or scorekeepers. Pregame, I always advise both coaches to let officials know if they even think that we're close to seven team fouls, and that I don't ever mind a friendly, "One and one", reminder from either coach.

And while I don't actually keep an accurate running count in my head, when my spider sense starts to tingle, I don't hesitate to ask the table how many team fouls there are. Usual answer is five, or six. Better to be safe than sorry.

[Mike Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Looking for some feedback on a messed up situation.

What should they do?
DQ A4 prior to the start of the third quarter or deem the wrongly charged T something which cannot be changed at this point?

I don't believe the question in the OP has been addressed satisfactorily, rather a different question later on was.

Are we "retroactively" disqualifying A4, even after a confirmed misapplication of a rule, or does the the crew
have to "embrace the suck" and allow A4 to continue to participate?

Known-rules experts on this forum have, inexplicably, not yet weighed in.

[bob jenkins]

I don't think it's covered, but I'd charge A4 with the T and DQ him.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I don't think it's covered, but I'd charge A4 with the T and DQ him.

I would too.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

I don't believe the question in the OP has been addressed satisfactorily, rather a different question later on was.



Are we "retroactively" disqualifying A4, even after a confirmed misapplication of a rule, or does the the crew

have to "embrace the suck" and allow A4 to continue to participate?



Known-rules experts on this forum have, inexplicably, not yet weighed in.

Because it's not covered in the rule and case books or published interpretations.

Any rulings giving by individuals are just their opinions on how they would handle it.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

Are we "retroactively" disqualifying A4 ...

The phrase retroactive disqualification seems so severe and harsh (though factually true).

Let's calm down the emotions by changing the original situation.

Let's say that the question of the mistaken rule, or misapplication of the rule, comes to the attention (because at least one of them thought "Hmmm") of the officials as they are reporting the unsporting technical foul.

Still too late to change the team technical foul to a bench (and offender) technical foul?

Even less emotion (below), no disqualification.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A4 dunks during the pregame. The officials observe this and assess a team technical foul along with an indirect to the HC. For the first half, A4 is neither charged with any additional technical fouls nor any personal fouls. At halftime the crew looks in the rulebook and sees that the technical for the pregame dunk should have been charged to A4 as a bench technical foul. What does the referee do coming out after halftime in this "low emotion, low impact" situation?

Also, we do have a retroactive disqualifications when the scorekeeper fails to inform the officials of a fifth team member foul, and later communicates such to the officials.