Another Referee Assault ...

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

I hope the official files a civil lawsuit against this guy and seeks substantial damages….. including punitive.

That would be pointless. Compensatory damages, if any, would be minimal (and likely considered under the criminal penalties,) and this conduct is not egregious enough to warrant punitive damages.

[WI_Ref]

Originally Posted by Matt

That would be pointless. Compensatory damages, if any, would be minimal (and likely considered under the criminal penalties,) and this conduct is not egregious enough to warrant punitive damages.

I dunno, maybe, maybe not. Considering that his face absorbed the fall this literally could have ended in death or some other head/neck injury. I would think a good lawyer could definitely get punitive damages. I would also assume the extent of the damage would still be unknown as there could be long term neck/spinal/brain type injury. They guy that went down appeared to be older and not in the best shape.

IMHO this certainly was egregious enough to warrant punitive damages but I'm be biased I suppose

[Matt]

Originally Posted by WI_Ref

I dunno, maybe, maybe not. Considering that his face absorbed the fall this literally could have ended in death or some other head/neck injury. I would think a good lawyer could definitely get punitive damages. I would also assume the extent of the damage would still be unknown as there could be long term neck/spinal/brain type injury. They guy that went down appeared to be older and not in the best shape.

That has nothing to do with if punitive damages are applicable. That is all compensatory.

Originally Posted by WI_Ref

IMHO this certainly was egregious enough to warrant punitive damages but I'm be biased I suppose

Simple assault and/or battery is almost never enough. There has to be some sort of factor that is especially beyond the pale in addition to the assault/battery. There really isn't one here (unless, for example, dude has a history of this behavior towards offiicials, or it had nothing to do with this game but a past game and he had intended to commit this crime for a while, etc.)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

I hope the official files a civil lawsuit against this guy and seeks substantial damages….. including punitive.

Originally Posted by WI_Ref

Considering that his face absorbed the fall this literally could have ended in death or some other head/neck injury. I would think a good lawyer could definitely get punitive damages ... this certainly was egregious enough to warrant punitive damages ...

I have not attended law school, nor have I passed the bar exam, but I have watched all 456 episodes of Law & Order, all 503 episodes of Law & Order: Special Victims Unit, and all 195 episodes Law & Order: Criminal Intent, so I'm whatcha might call a law expert.

While I can see probable criminal charges and a probable civil lawsuit filed against the parent, could there not also be criminal charges (risk of injury to a minor) and a civil lawsuit filed against the basketball official?

[rbruno]

Damned if we do and damned if we don't. Middle school I might try to get between so no one gets hurt. To this point game over and lets go home, don't care who wins, loses or whatever, let the rinky dink MS league fiigure this out.
This is the crap that causes officials to quit.
HS... just taking numbers and letting the coaches get the players and I'm not getting near a 6-2 HS player for fear of getting hurt myself. When the parents run on the floor I'm done. This jerk needs to get sued. No excuse. Heck what happened wasn't that bad... just boys trying to be men (women get this analogy).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rbruno

Damned if we do and damned if we don't.

While some of us would try to stop the fight, definitely by sounding our whistles, possibly by trying to get between the main participants, I'm not sure that officials are under any legal obligation to physically intervene.

There appear to be a few legal experts participating in this thread that may be able to inform us of any legal obligation that officials might have to physically intervene in matters such as this.

Perhaps those Forum members with some legal background knowledge can enlighten us?

Just remember. Anybody can sue anybody for anything at any time, and even if the plaintiff doesn't prevail, defendants should be represented by an attorney, and billable hours aren't inexpensive.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rbruno

Damned if we do and damned if we don't. Middle school I might try to get between so no one gets hurt. To this point game over and lets go home, don't care who wins, loses or whatever, let the rinky dink MS league fiigure this out.
This is the crap that causes officials to quit.
HS... just taking numbers and letting the coaches get the players and I'm not getting near a 6-2 HS player for fear of getting hurt myself. When the parents run on the floor I'm done. This jerk needs to get sued. No excuse. Heck what happened wasn't that bad... just boys trying to be men (women get this analogy).

This is why I do not do middle school at all. Many times we have less than ideal accommodations. I have been to places that did not give a locker room or expected us to get dressed in the public bathroom that the parents use. Sorry, not doing it anymore. Gained enough experience and knowledge to avoid those games like the plague. The same goes for Men's league, they are all the same. I can work a HS game and we have a locker room and some standards. Even in Illinois, we have a Junior High State Organization, but not worth the hassle. I will never do these games over a high school game or any other level for that matter. Just a waste of time.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is why I do not do middle school at all. Many times we have less than ideal accommodations ... not worth the hassle ...

A top notch experienced varsity official like yourself shouldn't even be considering middle school games, even middle school games that might be "worth the hassle". I'm sure that your varsity assigners, in two states, and your various college assigners would prefer for you to keep your calendar open. Even if you wanted to, would you have time to do any middle school games? I'm pretty sure that your high school and college schedule is already pretty full without any middle school games.

I obviously can't speak for Illinois or Indiana, but middle school games here in my little corner of Connecticut are not necessarily "games from hell".

My high school assigner assigns many middle school games in my local area, and he expects everyone involved, officials, site directors, players, and coaches to be as "professional" as possible. He expects reports about any unsporting activity and follows up with the school principals, site directors, and athletic directors. And the pay is pretty good, the same ($65.99) as a high school junior varsity game. Also, he almost always assigns middle school games "close to home", no fifty-five mile one way drives for those of us that work middle school games, most games are in towns contiguous to our hometowns.

Yes, there are some things missing in middle school games that we always have in high school varsity games. Seldom do we have National Anthems, player introductions (almost never), and cheerleaders. Sometimes we have students working the table, and seldom do we have scoreboards that show team fouls, so we always have to be on our toes.

But the coaches coach, the kids play hard, the fans cheer for the players, and the games are challenging to work for the officials. It's "real" basketball.

All of us are aware in advance that there are never dressing areas and showers available, so we all come dressed in uniform, it's never a surprise to us that these amenities aren't available.

Would I prefer to be working high school varsity games? Sure.

But with severe arthritis in my right foot, that's not possible.

I'm retired from my day job, I'm available for mid-afternoon games, not many officials are available for these hard to assign mid-afternoon games, so I'm desperately needed.

And middle school coaches and site directors appreciate an experienced official like me working their games, even it I can't sprint "gazelle-like" up and down the court.

And my assigner, training committees, and evaluators appreciate me giving pointers to the young'uns that I often work with.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A top notch experienced varsity official like yourself shouldn't even be considering middle school games, even middle school games that might be "worth the hassle". I'm sure that your varsity assigners, in two states, and your various college assigners would prefer for you to keep your calendar open. Even if you wanted to, would you have time to do any middle school games? I'm pretty sure that your high school and college schedule is already pretty full without any middle school games.

I obviously can't speak for Illinois or Indiana, but middle school games here in my little corner of Connecticut are not necessarily "games from hell".

Has nothing to do with my assignors or what other people want other than family and job requirements. I am not working a 4:00 game on most days for $40 when leaving my job I can make a lot more by staying. That $40 does not pay my bills or cover the expenses it took to work that game. And since I do not do this for the money (I have other goals) as a primary goal, I would rather work when and where I enjoy what I am doing, or I will be out like many other officials. I am also not going to do that for $40 because I have a family and other time I would like to spend.

I worked hard much of my career to have simple choices in what I do. I also do football and did baseball for years, I am an independent contractor and can choose when I leave my house/job what I am going to leave my house for. I had a game tonight canceled (Covid issues I believe) and I was ecstatic and the game was very close to my house. But I am not going to do some middle school game where some dad coaches and thinks he can yell and be disrespectful and if I deal with them how I would any other game it becomes a problem. I worked a lot of everything when I started and coming up the latter, I did anything I could get my hands on. But now I am married, have kids and good professional life and working a middle school game for me is not worth it. Leave those games to the game hoes that need that extra $40 in their life. I do not need that anymore. Gone enough and would rather be with my children and wife as a result. I do not tell other people what to do, but I feel it is like AAU or travel ball which is a headache too. Because if this situation happen at a high school game, I know that dad would be banned and there would be paperwork and documentation to penalize or hold those accountable. Middle school is the wild wild west of accountability.

And when I did a lot of middle school stuff, it was assigned by ADs and coaches I knew very well and they did not allow things to take place that I see on these videos. So again, accountability is the key. I know with high school and college, everyone has to adhere to a level of accountability.

I will put it like this in the end. When I was in my 20s, I used to be out all the time on the weekend spending all night out with friends and trying to be up all weekend. Now that I am much older and in my 40s, I would rather spend a night with my family and be in bed much earlier. Let newer officials do those games and learn. I would rather observe officials and not work than be in a middle school gym any day. As life changes, life has different needs and wants.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is why I do not do middle school at all. Many times we have less than ideal accommodations.

I figured that there were additional reasons, besides a Dad coming out of the stands (which was also in a recently posted video of a high school varsity game, the "pants" video, the one where you would punch the Dad) and poor locker room accommodations, why you don't work middle school games, and I was right. I figured (but didn't detail) that your "cup was already full" with high school and college games, job, and family, and I was right, especially with your line about relief that a game was cancelled. Been there and done that.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Even if you wanted to, would you have time to do any middle school games?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... family and job requirements ... some middle school game where some dad coaches and thinks he can yell and be disrespectful and if I deal with them how I would any other game it becomes a problem ... I am married, have kids and good professional life ... game hoes that need that extra $40 in their life ... Gone enough and would rather be with my children and wife ... it is like AAU or travel ball which is a headache too ... if this situation happen at a high school game, I know that dad would be banned and there would be paperwork and documentation to penalize or hold those accountable. Middle school is the wild wild west of accountability ... when I did a lot of middle school stuff, it was assigned by ADs and coaches I knew very well and they did not allow things to take place that I see on these videos ... accountability is the key. I know with high school and college, everyone has to adhere to a level of accountability.

Again, I can't speak for Indiana or Illinois.

The chances of a Dad coaching in a middle school game here in Connecticut are about the same as a Dad coaching a high school varsity game. Most Connecticut scholastic coaches at all levels are teachers. The few that aren't teachers, at all levels, are certified and under the control of the CIAC. Here in Connecticut, it's very difficult for non-teachers to became coaches (lots of hoops to jump through). Do not confuse a middle school game with a middle school-age game, recreation, travel, or AAU games that are very likely to be coached by Dads (or Moms).

While the percentage of games here in Connecticut worked for the money (as the main incentive) is higher for all subvarsity games than high school varsity games, there are many subvarsity officials, that work for the love of the game, camaraderie, exercise, etc. And some that want to help their assigner fill these hard-to-fill mid afternoon middle school assignments.

100% agree that travel and AAU games (and recreation games) are a big headache, but here in Connecticut the differences between a travel and AAU game with a middle school game are like day and night. Middle school games are like "miniature" high school varsity games (with some exceptions I posted above), with site directors on duty, principals and teachers often standing in the corner, players coming and going on buses, "real" uniforms, players having their coach as a teacher, or at least a teacher in their building, passing grade and attendance requirements for the players, etc.

Here in Connecticut, middle schools are controlled by the CIAC (ejection reports, penalties, etc.). Paperwork, documentation, and accountability are the same as with high schools.

When you did work middle school games (when I did a lot of middle school stuff) it appears that there was some accountability. I wonder what changed in your area? Assigners? Athletic directors? Culture?

Bottom line, while I fully believe you that middle school games in Indiana and Illinois are the wild wild west, I can assure you that this is not the case here in Connecticut.

If you lived here in Connecticut the only reasons that you would have to avoid working middle school games would be your already busy schedule of high school games, college games, job, and family, as long as you don't mind arriving in uniform. And of course as an independent contractor, as my mother used to say, "No reason, because I said so".

You don't need a reason. None of our business. I'm not asking. You offered.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is why I do not do middle school at all.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I figured that there were additional reasons, besides a Dad coming out of the stands (which was also in a recently posted video of a high school varsity game, the "pants" video, the one where you would punch the Dad) and poor locker room accommodations, why you don't work middle school games, and I was right. I figured (but didn't detail) that your "cup was already full" with high school and college games, job, and family, and I was right, especially with your line about relief that a game was cancelled. Been there and done that.



....

I think you should not try to speak for others or speculate as to why others do what they do. Let people speak for themselves.

Why do YOU need to detail the reasons Jeff does or doesn't do something?



Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... less than ideal accommodations.

We've got some real issues in some of our high schools. Again, these are high schools.

Dress in guidance office. Obviously no shower.

Dress in nurses office. Also, no shower.

Dress in nurses office, but this one has a shower.

Dress in custodians area, right next to snowblowers with snow melting off them forming puddles. There is a custodian shower.

Dress behind the curtain on the stage on one end of the gymnasium. Obviously no shower.

Been to these schools once not in uniform, shame on them, been there twice not in uniform, shame on me.

And of course we have lots of showers with no hot water.