Correctable Error: 3pt FGA: Utah State vs Portland State Men's Game.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Three pointer. If the ball had bounced inside the arc it would be two points.

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Not correct and it doesn't matter where it bounces...

4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket.
RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

Whether it is a try or not a try, we are to treat it the same....we are not expected to attempt to determine the thrower's attempt. This case establishes that when a try (or thrown ball) is obviously short and drops below the level of the ring, the opportunity to score 3 points is over.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not correct and it doesn't matter where it bounces...

4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket.

RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

Whether it is a try or not a try, we are to treat it the same....we are not expected to attempt to determine the thrower's attempt. This case establishes that when a try (or thrown ball) is obviously short and drops below the level of the ring, the opportunity to score 3 points is over.

I swear I read that somewhere

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[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Three pointer. If the ball had bounced inside the arc it would be two points.

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Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not correct and it doesn't matter where it bounces...

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I swear I read that somewhere

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You read that a try is over if the ball strikes the floor. Therefore, if a long throw bounces on the floor and then enters the basket, it cannot be worth three points. There is even an NFHS case play in which this happens (with or without the expiration of time at the end of a quarter.) Camron is astutely telling you that you incorrectly added a phrase stating where the ball bounces when you wrote “inside the arc.” He is pointing out that it doesn’t matter whether the ball bounces inside or outside the arc, merely the fact that it contacted the floor somewhere is enough to eliminate the possibility of a 3-point goal.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

NFHS rules. First let's set it up. Ninety-four foot court, in a "stadium" setting with an extremely high ceiling, highest ceiling on the planet. Middle of a period so the clock and buzzer don't complicate matters in any possible manner. A1 from deep in his backcourt, "throws" the ball forward, long, far, and very high. Ball hits the floor in the frontcourt six inches behind the three point arc, bounces off the floor and enters the basket, untouched by anybody.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Therefore, if a long throw bounces on the floor and then enters the basket, it cannot be worth three points. There is even an NFHS case play in which this happens (with or without the expiration of time at the end of a quarter).

5-2-1: A ball that touches the floor ... counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

5.1.1 SITUATION B: A pass, a tap or a try for field goal by A1 is in flight when the horn sounds indicating the expiration of time in the third quarter. The ball subsequently comes down several feet in front of the basket, strikes the floor without touching any player and bounces into the basket. RULING: When deemed a pass and not a try, the ball becomes dead immediately when the horn sounds. However, a try or tap by A1 towards A’s basket does not become dead until the try or tap ends, which it does when it touches the floor. Therefore, no points are scored. (4-41-2, 4, 5)

[BillyMac]

What about a "thrown" ball from outside the arc that touches a teammate (or opponent) outside the arc on the shoulder and subsequently enters the basket?

Since many were not alive when arcs were first painting on gymnasium floors, and for the subsequent alley oop rule change, and thus weren't privy to comments on these rules revisions, and thus original purpose and intent, please base one's answer only on the current rule definition and the current casebook plays.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4.41.4 SITUATION NEW: A1’s three-point try is ... below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket.

Note that I've changed the interpretation above to delete any reference to "short".

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

What about a "thrown" ball from outside the arc that touches a teammate (or opponent) outside the arc on the shoulder and subsequently enters the basket?

Note that I've changed the interpretation above to delete any reference to "short".

You cant remove the word "short" -- when the ball is short and DESCENDS below the ring height, the original throw / try ends. Ans subsequent deflection/ rebound into the basket is two points.

If the ball is "on the way up" and is deflected while STILL below the height of the ring, it's still a try / throw and worth three points.

IOW, stop focusing only on the location of the ball relative to the ring and start focusing on the whole play.

[BillyMac]

Sorry, I thought that "short" referred to north/south, not up/down.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If the ball is "on the way up" and is deflected while STILL below the height of the ring, it's still a try / throw and worth three points.

I was alive the watched the gym floor painter paint the original arc and agree with bob jenkins. I especially like his wording "on the way up".

However, I wish that the NFHS would add "on the way up" to its rulebbok and casebook, if not for anything else, then for the young'uns.

Always say "Merry Christmas" to bob.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

5-2-1: A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team’s own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

5.2.1 SITUATION A: A1 attempts a three-point goal. B1 slaps the ball: (a) while it is in downward flight outside the cylinder, but above the ring level; or (b) while it is in the cylinder after bouncing off the ring. RULING: It is defensive goaltending in (a) and defensive basket interference in (b). Three points are awarded in both cases as a result of the violation. (9-11, 12)

5.2.1 SITUATION B: With 2:45 left in the second quarter, B1 has the ball on the left wing in Team B's frontcourt, standing behind the three-point arc. B5 makes a backdoor cut toward the basket. B1 passes the ball toward the ring and B5 leaps for the potential "alley-oop" dunk. The ball, however, enters and passes through the goal directly from B1's pass and is not touched by B5. RULING: Score three points for Team B. A ball that is thrown into a team's own goal from behind the three-point arc scores three points, regardless of whether the thrown ball was an actual try for goal.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

Originally Posted by BillyMac

What about a "thrown" ball from outside the arc that touches a teammate (or opponent) outside the arc on the shoulder and subsequently enters the basket?

Raymond is correct, I'm through asking questions. Gonna take the bull by the horns.

Here's my personal take on my "thrown" ball "shoulder" question (directly above).

Based on a purely academic reading of the current rule definition and the current casebook plays, three points (both teammate and opponent).

Based on recent purpose and intent explanations by Camron Rust, and bob jenkins (“below the ring height”, "on the way up", “can't tell if it a try or pass, count it as if it were a try if it goes in. When there is no doubt about what it was ... it's not going to the basket, much less going in, without someone else changing the direction so that it goes in, it is simply a live ball that got deflected into the basket.”), two points (even if these explanations may not be the "official" purpose and intent of the NFHS).

Real game for me, two points (could probably pull it off with a confident, authoritarian sounding, "It's not a try" lie to a coach).

Written test for me, unsure, but current citations seem to "prove" three points.

Sure, I sound "foolish", but at least I took somewhat of a stand and offered citations.

As Ricky Nelson sang, "Though I see the danger there, if there's a chance for me, then I don't care".

I am now fully prepared to deservedly take on the slings and the arrows.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Of course, experienced veteran basketball officials would rely on current rule definitions, current casebook plays, and purpose and intent ...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

Nice citation.

"Short and below the ring" implies (can't be certain) that it hits a shoulder inside the three point arc.

What if the shoulder was simply below the ring but outside the three point arc?

Is the most important part of the interpretation that the "try ended"?

If so, hasn't the NFHS already decided that it doesn't have to be a try for it to be three points?

Is there a similar interpretation about a pass that "ended"?

Does the NFHS only limit three points to passes, trys, and deflected (blocked) trys, and not to deflections off of other body parts, or bounces off the floor?

Wouldn't it be nice if they stated that somewhere?

Aren't many deflections (blocks) below ring level?

Don't "deflectors (blockers)" often have inside the three point arc status.

Can a try be "deflected (blocked)" with a body part other than hand? Wrist? Forearm? Elbow? Upper arm? Shoulder? Head?

What's the most important part (purpose and intent) of Camron Rust's interpretation?

Lots of questions from me, with no definite answers for some questions.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I can certainly understand why the officials in the original post were confused. We have debated NFHS situations here on the Forum for similar situations, for example, deflected "passes", and deflected "shots", off of either offensive or defensive players, some being deflected off of body parts that are not hands, including "shots" or "passes" that were originally going "sideways" (east-west), all these being complex, and sometimes confusing, situations.

I sometimes wish that the NFHS continued to limit three points to trys, as they did in ancient times.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

What's the most important part (purpose and intent) of Camron Rust's interpretation?

Seriously, this was not a rhetorical question.

I would really like to know, if at all possible.

I've actually had this question on my mind since the NFHS went from the ancient rule to the modern rule.

When the rule was first changed, I was actually pleased about the change, no longer having to differentiate between an alley oop pass and a try, but as I began deep diving into the rules, I became frustrated with the various (probably) unintended ramifications of the change.

[bob jenkins]

The NCAA interp is that if the ball had a chance (interpret this loosely) to enter the basket, then treat it as a try (for scoring purposes). If the ball had no chance (had gone from above to below the level of the basket, was in a direction away from the basket) then treat it not as a try and score two points.

I'd treat FED the same.

I think that answers most of the questions.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The NCAA interp is that if the ball had a chance (interpret this loosely) to enter the basket, then treat it as a try (for scoring purposes). If the ball had no chance (had gone from above to below the level of the basket, was in a direction away from the basket) then treat it not as a try and score two points.

Thanks bob jenkins. Great purpose and intent layman's language explanation. I wish the NFHS would use similar language. Thanks for taking the time and making the effort to explain it to me. Merry Christmas.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The NCAA interp is that if the ball had a chance (interpret this loosely) to enter the basket, then treat it as a try (for scoring purposes). If the ball had no chance (had gone from above to below the level of the basket, was in a direction away from the basket) then treat it not as a try and score two points.

I'd treat FED the same.

I think that answers most of the questions.

I agree....the whole point of the rule change was that if a ball is thrown to the basket and you can't tell if it a try or pass, count it as if it were a try if it goes in. When there is no doubt about what it was...it's not going to the basket, much less going in, without someone else changing the direction so that it goes in, it is simply a live ball that got deflected into the basket, no different than it was prior to that rule change. Everyone understood that at the time. Now, people want to re-disect the rule to come up with silly outcomes that were never the intent.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... the whole point of the rule change was that if a ball is thrown to the basket and you can't tell if it a try or pass, count it as if it were a try if it goes in. When there is no doubt about what it was...it's not going to the basket, much less going in, without someone else changing the direction so that it goes in, it is simply a live ball that got deflected into the basket, no different than it was prior to that rule change. Everyone understood that at the time.

Another great purpose and intent explanation, mix this together with bob jenkin's explanation, add a pinch of salt, and one has a pretty good basis to make interpretations regarding such situations.

However, for the tens of thousands of officials who weren't the "everyone" around to remember somebody painting the first arcs on gymnasium floors, and then the subsequent alley oop rule change, it would be nice if the NFHS could somehow codify purpose and intent, with rule language changes, and casebook interpretations (please, no annual interpretations, or points of emphasis).

Also, was it simply an alley oop change, or were there also changes regarding the ball touching a defensive player who was inside the arc, as in a deflected (blocked) "throw"? And, of course the alley oop change also complicated the interpretation of goaltending.

Again, I sometimes wish that the NFHS continued to limit three points to trys.

If wishes were horses then beggars would ride,
If turnips were swords I’d have one by my side.
If ‘ifs’ and ‘ands’ were pots and pans
There would be no need for tinker’s hands!
(Scottish nursery rhyme)

[BillyMac]

5-2-1: A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team’s own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

5.2.1 SITUATION A: A1 attempts a three-point goal. B1 slaps the ball: (a) while it is in downward flight outside the cylinder, but above the ring level; or (b) while it is in the cylinder after bouncing off the ring. RULING: It is defensive goaltending in (a) and defensive basket interference in (b). Three points are awarded in both cases as a result of the violation. (9-11, 12)

5.2.1 SITUATION B: With 2:45 left in the second quarter, B1 has the ball on the left wing in Team B's frontcourt, standing behind the three-point arc. B5 makes a backdoor cut toward the basket. B1 passes the ball toward the ring and B5 leaps for the potential "alley-oop" dunk. The ball, however, enters and passes through the goal directly from B1's pass and is not touched by B5. RULING: Score three points for Team B. A ball that is thrown into a team's own goal from behind the three-point arc scores three points, regardless of whether the thrown ball was an actual try for goal.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)