Interesting Play

[Camron Rust]

This play is traveling.

This case plays details what the player may do.

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or request a time-out. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

The case says they may sit up if they're on their back. It doesn't say they can rise to their knees if they're on their belly. If that were to be legal, it would be listed. Further, the travel rule is one that is based on listing what is legal and what is not specified as legal isn't.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... Camron Rust discovered possible exceptions to this adage in a recent thread about fumbles, which maybe not coincidentally, was also about travelling.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... the travel rule is one that is based on listing what is legal and what is not specified as legal isn't.

Which, from this point on is to be referred to as "The Camron Rust Adage" Ⓒ 2021 Camron Rust

Add it to the old adage list, that includes, among others, "If it's not illegal, it's legal".

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Add it to the list, that includes, among others ...

You are where you were until you get where you're going.
Must have something in and nothing out.
Last to touch, first to touch.
Must sit a tick, don’t have to play a tick.
There's a difference between being tripped, and tripping.
Over the back isn't, on the back is.
Accidental isn't always incidental.
If you are not sure, don’t call it.
When the ball is dead, we must be alive.
Prevent if we can, enforce if we must.
Answer questions, not statements.
Anticipate the play, not the call.

[Kansas Ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

You are where you were until you get where you're going.
Must have something in and nothing out.
Last to touch, first to touch.
Must sit a tick, don’t have to play a tick.
There's a difference between being tripped, and tripping.
Over the back isn't, on the back is.
Accidental isn't always incidental.
If you are not sure, don’t call it.
When the ball is dead, we must be alive.
Prevent if we can, enforce if we must.
Answer questions, not statements.
Anticipate the play, not the call.

*Regarding your point #5: In a recent pregame chat with my crew, we shared our views on this type of action. A play where dribbler is attempting to drive past a defender [B1] who is in LGP and then trips over the foot of defender and falls down. A foul is expected to be called on B1. Or equally common, when A1 is trapped by B1+ B2, [with less than 2 feet of open space betwixt] then tries to force/split the trap, stumbles after contacting the leg of either B and falls down subsequently loses the ball, and a foul is expected to be called on either B. In both plays the foot, torso or leg of either B was there first and was maintained in normal position (no obtrusive extension). Collectively, we'd all observed amongst ourselves and others a foul was called on either B. So, we vowed to call these types of action correctly in our game that day; mindful of recognizing proper LGP by the either B. I had the first crack at it in the first qtr when an A1 was trapped by a B1+B2, who'd established and maintained their LGP, at the FT semicircle and tried to split them on a straightline drive try for goal. The A1 tripped on thigh of a B and fell down, lost the ball and a B advanced the ball for fast break score. No whistle from me or anyone e else. In transition the A coach ripped my azz [which I expected]: "Didn't you see that tripping foul?!" He exclaimed. "Now he's hurt", he said while pointing at his A1 limping on the court. And he called a timeout to replace the limping A. Then, he asked me again during the timeout why no foul was called. I replied to the A coach: "Hay coach, your was not tripped, he just tripped on the defender who was already there first. Coach any player has a right to a spot on the floor provided he gets there first." Then A coach retorted, "Sir, everybody calls that a foul, you can't just make up your own rules." I replied, "Coach, the other refs called that a foul because the defense was probably not in LGP, but on that play the defense was in LGP. If it was your players on defense I would no-call it the same way." He paused, looked a bit stunned, and said nothing else. But for the rest of that game, no other player tried to dribble-split force their way through traps, I observed them to subsequently make passes over the trap or employ stratagems that altogether avoided traps (e.g., speed dribbling around traps, backup dribb!es, step-thru passes, etc.). Ostensibly, the teams therefore adapted to how the game was being called.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

There's a difference between being tripped, and tripping.

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

... the foot, torso or leg ... was there first and was maintained in normal position (no obtrusive extension) ... "Didn't you see that tripping foul?!" ... not tripped, he just tripped on the defender who was already there first ... any player has a right to a spot on the floor provided he gets there first ...

2004-05 NFHS Casebook: 10.6.1 Situation E: B1 attempts to steal the ball from stationary A1 who is holding the ball. B1 misses the ball and falls to the floor. In dribbling away, A1 contacts B1's leg, loses control of the ball and falls to the floor. Ruling: No infraction or foul has occurred and play continues. Unless B1 made an effort to trip or block A1, he/she is entitled to a position on the court even if it is momentarily lying on the floor after falling down.

4-23-1: Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent ... Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent. A player who extends an arm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position if contact occurs.

4-37-3: Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court, provided the player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent.

10-7-1: A player must not hold, push, charge, trip or impede the progress of an opponent by extending arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s) or knee(s), or by bending his/her body into other than a normal position; nor use any rough tactics.

[Kansas Ref]

Regarding the subject/content of the video that originated this Thread: I have a Legal dribble established by the player after recovering the ball, so "no-call". Thanks.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

I have a Legal dribble ...

I believe that all would agree that the dribble was legal.

After gaining possession of a loose ball with knees on the floor, one can legally start a dribble (and one can then legally continue to dribble and stand up), pass, shoot, or request a timeout.

The debate is about a travel, not about possible illegal dribble. Some believe that the player, preceding the start of the dribble, was attempting to get up, others believe that the player, preceding the start of the dribble, was not attempting to get up.

It's a subjective judgement call.

4-44-5-B: Travel: A player holding the ball: After gaining control while on the floor and touching with other than hand or foot, may not attempt to get up or stand.

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or request a time-out. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)