Fun With A Hip Check …

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... people know that when you give the PC foul you are calling it on the offensive player ...

While, obviously 100% true, many coaches, players, and fans here in my little corner of Connecticut usually see the hand behind the head player control foul signal in the aftermath of a block/charge situation, and thus often associate that signal (incorrectly) with only such specific situations.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... with the new change, the signals ...

JRutledge is correct in that coaches, players, and fans will be seeing a lot more hand behind the head signals (both player control and team control) and will eventually figure that the hand behind the head signal is for any "offensive" type foul, for example, an illegal screen.

Of course, that assumes that individuals and local and state associations will follow the new NFHS signal chart. I've heard through the grapevine that many local and state associations will stick with the "stronger" team control punch for team control fouls.

And to confuse matters even more, in the past, many individuals and local and state associations have never used the hand behind the head player control signal, using the "punch" signal for both player control fouls and team control fouls.

In the past, individual officials here in my little corner of Connecticut have used as many different player control foul signals (often variations of a "punch") as Carter has little liver pills, with evaluators and assignment commissioners overlooking and allowing such individual differences as variations in "style".

I'm interested in seeing what happens next season regarding player control fouls signals and team control fouls here in my local area.

Once again, as usual, when in Rome ...

[JRutledge]

I was not referencing the "hand behind the head" mechanic. For the record both the NCAA and the NF have stopped using different signals for TC and PC fouls. The funny thing is both have decided on different signals. My point is either way people are not confused when we call a PC foul even if it is not a block/charge play.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... both the NCAA and the NF have stopped using different signals for TC and PC fouls. The funny thing is both have decided on different signals.

I'm not one of those guys that believes that all rule and mechanics sets (NFHS and NCAA) for different levels (high school and college) must be the same (easy for me to say as an "only" high school official who watches very little college basketball on television), but I do find it odd that the NFHS and the NCAA ended up 180 degrees apart on this issue.

I thought the purpose of doing away with the the "punch" was to keep it from being confused with "count the basket".

Label me, "Confused in Connecticut".

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm not one of those guys that believes that all rule and mechanics sets (NFHS and NCAA) for different levels (high school and college) must be the same (easy for me to say as an "only" high school official who watches very little college basketball on television), but I do find it odd that the NFHS and the NCAA ended up 180 degrees apart on this issue.

I thought the purpose of doing away with the the "punch" was to keep it from being confused with "count the basket".

Label me, "Confused in Connecticut".

The answer is simple. The NCAA does not care what the NF does. And certainly not the CCA committee.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... find it odd that the NFHS and the NCAA ended up 180 degrees apart on this issue. I thought the purpose of doing away with the "punch" was to keep it from being confused with "count the basket".

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The NCAA does not care what the NF does.

I don't care if they don't talk to each other, but I do care about the rationale.

Who was it that originally believed that the "punch" could be confused with "count the basket"?

From my reading of Forum threads over the past few years, I thought that it was the NCAA that was originally worried about such confusion, yet they, unlike the NFHS, decided not to act on it.

That's what confused me (if my facts are straight).

Or maybe signal confusion has absolutely nothing to do with the recent NFHS signal change?

The official signals were also modified to use the same hand signal for a player control foul and a team control foul. Officials should use Signal 36, which is a hand placed at the back of the head, for both types of fouls. Previously, a team control foul was communicated with a punch of the hand. “It is redundant to have different signals to communicate that a foul will be charged to a member of the team in control of the ball,” Wynns said. “Officials don’t understand the need to differentiate between a player control foul and a team control foul, and many game participants, table personnel and fans don’t know the difference.” The committee reviewed various changes that had been both made and requested at a variety of levels of basketball and determined that all player and team control fouls should utilize signal 36 (the hand behind the head) rather than the previous mechanics that utilized Signal 37 (the extended fist) for a team control foul. The proper sequence for either of these calls will now be signal 4 to indicate a foul, the use of the same arm to give signal 36 to indicate a player or team control foul, followed by signal 6 indicating the direction in which the ball will be put in play and then signal 7 to indicate the throw-in spot.

And maybe the NCAA figured that any slight possibility of signal confusion didn't warrant a signal change?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... but I do care about the rationale ... maybe signal confusion has absolutely nothing to do with the recent NFHS signal change?

Maybe the NFHS simply saw some signal redundancy and fixed it, with the change having absolutely nothing to do with (punch/count basket) signal confusion.

Meanwhile, the NCAA studied the (punch/count basket) signal confusion matter and simply decided that the slight possibility of (punch/count basket) signal confusion didn't warrant the elimination of the punch signal.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I don't care if they don't talk to each other, but I do care about the rationale.

Who was it that originally believed that the "punch" could be confused with "count the basket"?

Not in each organizational meeting to know why each do different things, but the NCAA likes to address things directly and puts stuff out. The NCAA had several situations in the NCAA Tournament where an official gave the "punch" and looked like the official was calling a "count the basket.

From my reading of Forum threads over the past few years, I thought that it was the NCAA that was originally worried about such confusion, yet they, unlike the NFHS, decided not to act on it.

Didn't I say

That's what confused me (if my facts are straight).

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Or maybe signal confusion has absolutely nothing to do with the recent NFHS signal change?

You tend to worry about things that no one else worries about. I have no idea what you are confused by, just pointing out that the CCA made the change. Who decided first to make such a change is not something I worry about. I know the CCA meets multiple times during the year according to someone on the committee (I happened to work for).

Originally Posted by BillyMac

And maybe the NCAA figured that any slight possibility of signal confusion didn't warrant a signal change?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I was not referencing the "hand behind the head" mechanic. For the record both the NCAA and the NF have stopped using different signals for TC and PC fouls. The funny thing is both have decided on different signals. My point is either way people are not confused when we call a PC foul even if it is not a block/charge play.

Do you read stuff before you write them multiple times?

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You tend to worry about things that no one else worries about. I have no idea what you are confused by ...

One should not confuse worrying with curiosity.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

For the record both the NCAA and the NF have stopped using different signals for TC and PC fouls. The funny thing is both have decided on different signals.

What confuses me is that while all appear to agree that the NFHS and the NCAA have both decided on one signal for both team control fouls and player control fouls, JRutledge has stated that the NCAA signal is different than the NFHS signal (which must mean punch for NCAA and hand behind head for NFHS), but Raymond has stated that NCAA-M signal and the NFHS signal are the same (hand behind head).

If JRutledge is referring to the NCAA-W signal as being different than the NFHS signal (with the NCAA-W signal a punch), than I'm no longer confused, or I am no longer confused if JRutledge is mistaken about the NCAA signal being different than the NFHS signal. Or, Raymond might be mistaken (though he seemed confident in both of his posts).

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I don't care if they don't talk to each other, but I do care about the rationale.

Who was it that originally believed that the "punch" could be confused with "count the basket"?

From my reading of Forum threads over the past few years, I thought that it was the NCAA that was originally worried about such confusion, yet they, unlike the NFHS, decided not to act on it.

That's what confused me (if my facts are straight).

Or maybe signal confusion has absolutely nothing to do with the recent NFHS signal change?

The official signals were also modified to use the same hand signal for a player control foul and a team control foul. Officials should use Signal 36, which is a hand placed at the back of the head, for both types of fouls. Previously, a team control foul was communicated with a punch of the hand. “It is redundant to have different signals to communicate that a foul will be charged to a member of the team in control of the ball,” Wynns said. “Officials don’t understand the need to differentiate between a player control foul and a team control foul, and many game participants, table personnel and fans don’t know the difference.” The committee reviewed various changes that had been both made and requested at a variety of levels of basketball and determined that all player and team control fouls should utilize signal 36 (the hand behind the head) rather than the previous mechanics that utilized Signal 37 (the extended fist) for a team control foul. The proper sequence for either of these calls will now be signal 4 to indicate a foul, the use of the same arm to give signal 36 to indicate a player or team control foul, followed by signal 6 indicating the direction in which the ball will be put in play and then signal 7 to indicate the throw-in spot.

And maybe the NCAA figured that any slight possibility of signal confusion didn't warrant a signal change?

It was NCAA Men's who thought the punch signal was confusing. So NCAA Men's got rid of the pet single for all theme control files and went to behind the head.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The NCAA had several situations in the NCAA Tournament where an official gave the "punch" and looked like the official was calling a "count the basket.

JRutledge: Thanks for confirming that for me.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... both the NCAA and the NF have stopped using different signals for TC and PC fouls. The funny thing is both have decided on different signals.

Originally Posted by Raymond

It was NCAA Men's who thought the punch signal was confusing. So NCAA Men's got rid of the pet single for all theme control files and went to behind the head.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... if my facts are straight.

Because I'm strictly a high school official, but am still curious about some NCAA "stuff", JRutledge and Raymond have now totally confused me.

NFHS: One signal (hand behind head) for both player control and team control fouls (that I'm certain of).

NCAA Men: One signal (hand behind head) for both player control and team control fouls (according to Raymond, "went to behind the head").

NCAA: One signal (punch) for both player control and team control fouls (according to JRutledge, "both (NFHS and NCAA) have decided on different signals").

Maybe I'm confused because of a possible difference between NCAA Men and NCAA Women?

Help. I'm curious and I can't get up.