Fun With A Hip Check …

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I don't care if they don't talk to each other, but I do care about the rationale.

Who was it that originally believed that the "punch" could be confused with "count the basket"?

From my reading of Forum threads over the past few years, I thought that it was the NCAA that was originally worried about such confusion, yet they, unlike the NFHS, decided not to act on it.

That's what confused me (if my facts are straight).

Or maybe signal confusion has absolutely nothing to do with the recent NFHS signal change?

The official signals were also modified to use the same hand signal for a player control foul and a team control foul. Officials should use Signal 36, which is a hand placed at the back of the head, for both types of fouls. Previously, a team control foul was communicated with a punch of the hand. “It is redundant to have different signals to communicate that a foul will be charged to a member of the team in control of the ball,” Wynns said. “Officials don’t understand the need to differentiate between a player control foul and a team control foul, and many game participants, table personnel and fans don’t know the difference.” The committee reviewed various changes that had been both made and requested at a variety of levels of basketball and determined that all player and team control fouls should utilize signal 36 (the hand behind the head) rather than the previous mechanics that utilized Signal 37 (the extended fist) for a team control foul. The proper sequence for either of these calls will now be signal 4 to indicate a foul, the use of the same arm to give signal 36 to indicate a player or team control foul, followed by signal 6 indicating the direction in which the ball will be put in play and then signal 7 to indicate the throw-in spot.

And maybe the NCAA figured that any slight possibility of signal confusion didn't warrant a signal change?

It was NCAA Men's who thought the punch signal was confusing. So NCAA Men's got rid of the pet single for all theme control files and went to behind the head.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The NCAA had several situations in the NCAA Tournament where an official gave the "punch" and looked like the official was calling a "count the basket.

JRutledge: Thanks for confirming that for me.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... both the NCAA and the NF have stopped using different signals for TC and PC fouls. The funny thing is both have decided on different signals.

Originally Posted by Raymond

It was NCAA Men's who thought the punch signal was confusing. So NCAA Men's got rid of the pet single for all theme control files and went to behind the head.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... if my facts are straight.

Because I'm strictly a high school official, but am still curious about some NCAA "stuff", JRutledge and Raymond have now totally confused me.

NFHS: One signal (hand behind head) for both player control and team control fouls (that I'm certain of).

NCAA Men: One signal (hand behind head) for both player control and team control fouls (according to Raymond, "went to behind the head").

NCAA: One signal (punch) for both player control and team control fouls (according to JRutledge, "both (NFHS and NCAA) have decided on different signals").

Maybe I'm confused because of a possible difference between NCAA Men and NCAA Women?

Help. I'm curious and I can't get up.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

JRutledge: Thanks for confirming that for me.







Because I'm strictly a high school official, but am still curious about some NCAA "stuff", JRutledge and Raymond have now totally confused me.

NFHS: One signal (hand behind head) for both player control and team control fouls (that I'm certain of).

NCAA Men: One signal (hand behind head) for both player control and team control fouls (according to Raymond, "went to behind the head").

NCAA: One signal (punch) for both player control and team control fouls (according to JRutledge, "both (NFHS and NCAA) have decided on different signals").

Maybe I'm confused because of a possible difference between NCAA Men and NCAA Women?

Help. I'm curious and I can't get up.

I work NCAA-Men's and always defer to Bob and others when it comes to NCAA-Women's. I always make sure to reference Men's when I talk about the NCAA.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

For the record both the NCAA and the NF have stopped using different signals for TC and PC fouls. The funny thing is both have decided on different signals.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

NFHS: One signal (hand behind head) for both player control and team control fouls (that I'm certain of).

NCAA Men: One signal (hand behind head) for both player control and team control fouls (according to Raymond, "went to behind the head").

Originally Posted by BillyMac

NCAA: One signal (punch) for both player control and team control fouls (according to JRutledge, "both (NFHS and NCAA) have decided on different signals").

Originally Posted by Raymond

I work NCAA-Men's and always defer to Bob and others when it comes to NCAA-Women's. I always make sure to reference Men's when I talk about the NCAA.

Maybe JRutledge was referring to NCAA Women ("both (NFHS and NCAA) have decided on different signals")?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Maybe JRutledge was referring to NCAA Women ("both (NFHS and NCAA) have decided on different signals")?

I do not work women's basketball and do not care about women's basketball. The NCAA Men's Basketball is the only basketball that makes money and has well-known changes. Women's basketball is so busy trying to be the NBA, they often only do what the NBA does.

BTW, this was in the CCA Manual for 2020-2021.



But thanks for playing.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not work women's basketball and do not care about women's basketball.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The funny thing is both have decided on different signals.

Then please explain to me how the single team control/player control NCAA signal is different than the NFHS single team control/player control signal, or was Raymond or JRutledge mistaken?



Sure looks the SAME (as in not DIFFERENT) as the NFHS signal.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Then please explain to me how the single team control/player control NCAA signal is different than the NFHS single team control/player control signal, or was Raymond or JRutledge mistaken?



Sure looks the SAME (as in not DIFFERENT) as the NFHS signal.

You are posting the signal from NCAA-Men's CCA Manual, so why are you asking if I'm mistaken?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Then please explain to me how the single team control/player control NCAA signal is different than the NFHS single team control/player control signal, or was Raymond or JRutledge mistaken?



Sure looks the SAME (as in not DIFFERENT) as the NFHS signal.

My reference or comment to different signals was the idea that they would stop using the TC and PC signals for those different types of fouls. I was not trying referencing to what the NF did in comparison to or why. The NCAA did decide to make a change first and did so because of their issues with confusion in their high-profile situations. Also, the NCAA shows a full procedure, the NF at this time only shows one signal (according to their Pre-Season Guide made by NASO). It is a little different and really not the point I was trying to make here. Not worried about why different organizations want to do something they see fit. Different participants and different officials.

Peace