The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #31 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 01:36pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Possible ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Center A2, the tallest player in the league, sets a ball screen for point guard A1, the shortest player in the league. Both A1 and A2 are outside the three point arc. Because of the great screen, A1 finds himself undefended for a split second and attempts a three point try, however, after A1 releases the try, the ball (on the way up) strikes A2 in the head. The ball awkwardly ricochets high into the air, and subsequently passes through the basket. Two points, or three points? Is this like the alley-oop pass? And remember, the teammate, A2, is outside (not inside) the arc. Easy extra credit: Same thing, but horn to end period sounds after the ball ricochets off A2's head, but before the ball enters the basket?
If we're not counting anything if the horn sounds before the ball enters the basket, then is it possible that we shouldn't score three points (just two) on the defection (everybody behind the arc) that enters the basket before the horn sounds?

Or do they not have anything to do with each other?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed May 19, 2021 at 01:41pm.
Reply With Quote
  #32 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 01:40pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Riddle Me This ...

With 0:04 left in the second quarter, B1 has the ball on the left wing in Team B’s frontcourt, standing behind the three point arc. B5 makes a back door cut toward the basket. B1 passes the ball toward the ring and B5 leaps for the potential alley-oop dunk. The horn to end the period sounds before the ball enters and passes through the goal directly from B1’s pass and is not touched by B5.

What's the call? It's a pass, not a try, but do we treat it as a "Bootylicious" try?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed May 19, 2021 at 02:03pm.
Reply With Quote
  #33 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 02:49pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Rockville,MD
Posts: 1,139
This is a 3-point try, even though it was not intended to be such. It is a ball thrown towards the goal with a chance of scoring in flight, so by rule it is a try, and since it was launched behind the 3-point line, and not touched by anyone, 3 points score.
Reply With Quote
  #34 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 03:36pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Treated As A Try ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
With 0:04 left in the second quarter, B1 has the ball on the left wing in Team B’s frontcourt, standing behind the three point arc. B5 makes a back door cut toward the basket. B1 passes the ball toward the ring and B5 leaps for the potential alley-oop dunk. The horn to end the period sounds before the ball enters and passes through the goal directly from B1’s pass and is not touched by B5.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
This is a 3-point try ...
No it isn't. It's a pass (it says as such in the interpretation that I slightly modified). It's just treated as a try for the purpose of determining two or three points (not requiring judgment as to whether the ball in flight was a pass or a try).

This is a real rule language try. 4-41-2: A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal.

It doesn't say that a try is an attempt to pass the ball to a teammate. Attempting to throw for goal is not the same as attempting to pass the ball to a teammate.

I also believe (by purpose and intent) that this same 2001-02 clarification allows us to treat a last second ally-oop pass (as we've been discussing) the enters the basket untouched after the horn sounds to count, in this case, as three points.

But that is just my humble opinion.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed May 19, 2021 at 04:03pm.
Reply With Quote
  #35 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 04:36pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Rockville,MD
Posts: 1,139
Can there be goaltending on this thrown ball? If I recall correctly, if this thrown ball was knocked down above the height of the basket, on its downward flight, and with a chance to score, then goaltending could be called. Since goaltending can only be called on tries, this alley-oop that did not connect would be considered a try by rule.
Reply With Quote
  #36 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 05:15pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Can there be goaltending on this thrown ball? If I recall correctly, if this thrown ball was knocked down above the height of the basket, on its downward flight, and with a chance to score, then goaltending could be called. Since goaltending can only be called on tries, this alley-oop that did not connect would be considered a try by rule.
If you deem the throw ball is a "pass" then the answer is no. If you deem this is a shot like Dereck Whittenburg and it falls short and Lorenzo Charles puts it back in, you could I guess. But that play the shot was going to be short and it would not have been GT at all IMO.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #37 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 05:35pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Impressive ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... a shot like Dereck Whittenburg and it falls short and Lorenzo Charles puts it back in ...
Wow. Great memory. Almost forty years ago. I still remember watching it on television, maybe my first color television.

https://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/20...ot-was-a-pass/
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed May 19, 2021 at 10:39pm.
Reply With Quote
  #38 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 05:37pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Clarification ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
... this alley-oop that did not connect would be considered a try by rule.
... by rule clarification.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #39 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 05:41pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Personal Opinion ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Can there be goaltending on this thrown ball?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
With 0:04 left in the second quarter, B1 has the ball on the left wing in Team B’s frontcourt, standing behind the three point arc. B5 makes a back door cut toward the basket. B1 passes the ball toward the ring and B5 leaps for the potential alley-oop dunk. The horn to end the period sounds before the ball enters and passes through the goal directly from B1’s pass and is not touched by B5.
In my opinion, the 2001-02 rule clarification suggests that one can count the (passed into the basket) basket after the horn sounds, count it as three points, and call goaltending if it occurs.

Just my personal opinion. My mind can be easily changed.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed May 19, 2021 at 06:01pm.
Reply With Quote
  #40 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 07:56pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 18,016
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Can there be goaltending on this thrown ball?
You can't have GT on a pass. You can have BI on a pass.

We have talked before about the discrepancy in the "alley oop" play -- if the horn goes off, no basket (because it's not a try); if it goes through the basket, 3-points (as if it were a try).
Reply With Quote
  #41 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 20, 2021, 12:33am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
This is a 3-point try, even though it was not intended to be such. It is a ball thrown towards the goal with a chance of scoring in flight, so by rule it is a try, and since it was launched behind the 3-point line, and not touched by anyone, 3 points score.
No, by rule this is not a try. A try has a specific definition and this is not it. It does count for 3 points but not because the rules say it is a try.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #42 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 20, 2021, 09:48am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Alley-Oop (The Beach Boys, 1965) ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
In my opinion, the 2001-02 rule clarification suggests that one can count the (passed into the basket) basket after the horn sounds, count it as three points, and call goaltending if it occurs. Just my personal opinion. My mind can be easily changed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
We have talked before about the discrepancy in the "alley oop" play -- if the horn goes off, no basket (because it's not a try); if it goes through the basket, 3-points (as if it were a try).
Since we should always listen to bob, with the exception that I was wrong in my initial commentary on the IAABO video (two, not three, points off accidental defensive deflection), I now have no closure (that I thought I had) on alley-oop "horns" and alley-oop "goaltending"; as well as an unanswered question regarding an offensive deflection with everybody behind the arc.

__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu May 20, 2021 at 12:02pm.
Reply With Quote
  #43 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 20, 2021, 03:32pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Rockville,MD
Posts: 1,139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
No, by rule this is not a try. A try has a specific definition and this is not it. It does count for 3 points but not because the rules say it is a try.
Why does it count for three points then, if it is not a try? It is an attempt to score, from behind the 3 point line.
Reply With Quote
  #44 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 20, 2021, 03:52pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,840
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Why does it count for three points then, if it is not a try? It is an attempt to score, from behind the 3 point line.
As Camron stated, a try has a specific definition. When the defense shoots into the wrong basket, it is not a try by definition, but it still counts as 2 points.

If a player throws a baseball pass and is fouled, the ball is dead immediately and if it goes through the basket it does not count as a goal. If a player attempts a try and is fouled, the ball is not dead, and if it goes through the basket it counts as a goal.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #45 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 20, 2021, 06:32pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Why does it count for three points then, if it is not a try? It is an attempt to score, from behind the 3 point line.
Why? Because the rule says so. It does not say it is a try. It just says it counts as 3 points whether it was an attempt to score (a try) or not an attempt to score. If they wanted to be be a try, the rule would have defined it as such.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:42am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1