Fun With Two Or Three Points ...

[Camron Rust]

Case 4.41.4 is the applicable case play....2 points. The ball was short and any throw that could have been considered 3 was over. A new action by the defender batted the ball (not merely touched it in flight) into a basket for 2 points.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Rich

Billy's right.

Like it or not, by rule this is a 3-point basket.


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Nope, he’s dead wrong and so are you.
The different case play in which the thrown ball is well below the level of the ring and strikes a defender’s shoulder then bounces up and into the goal is the proper citation. That ruling is a two-point goal.
As Rut writes, the action shown in the video is not what is intended by or under the purview of the rule and/or case play cited by Billy.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Nope, he’s dead wrong and so are you.
The different case play in which the thrown ball is well below the level of the ring and strikes a defender’s shoulder then bounces up and into the goal is the proper citation. That ruling is a two-point goal.
As Rut writes, the action shown in the video is not what is intended by or under the purview or the rule and/or case play cited by Billy.

Not the first time I was wrong. At least someone found a case play.


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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Can we all agree that, unlike the original rule from thirty years ago, a three point basket no longer has to be a legal try, but could be a pass?

Comments On The 2001-02 Revisions

Three point basket clarified. Three points shall be awarded for any ball thrown, passed, or shot from beyond the three point arc that passes through a team’s own basket. Where in most situations a try can be differentiated from a pass, to eliminate possible confusion this change should help to clarify by not requiring judgment as to whether the ball in flight was a pass or a try.

5.2.1 Situation: With 2:45 left in the second quarter, B1 has the ball on the left wing in Team B’s frontcourt, standing behind the three point arc. B5 makes a back door cut toward the basket. B1 passes the bail toward the ring and B5 leaps for the potential alley-oop dunk. The ball, however, enters and passes through the goal directly from B1’s pass and is not touched by B5. Ruling: Score three points for Team B. A ball that is thrown into the goal from behind the three point arc in the frontcourt scores three points, regardless of whether the thrown ball was an actual try for goal.

[JRutledge]

Yes but this is not going anywhere near the basket. So unless we have a doubt, then to me this should only be a 2 in the video.

Again, what is the intent of the rule? What were they trying to clear up by making this ruling from previously saying no matter what it was a 2 if the officials deem the "throw" to be only a pass?

This to me is not the intent or the kind of situation that the interpretation was cleared up for. But again if there is not clarity, the NF often asks for states to make their ruling and this might be one of these cases I might just ask for opinions in my area.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

... action shown in the video is not what is intended by or under the purview or the rule and/or case play cited by Billy.

I think that I figured out the intent of the rule/case play I cited.

5-2-1: A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team’s own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

5-2-1 and 5.2.1 Situation C both allow a try from behind the three point arc to be deflected/blocked by a defender inside the three point arc and yet still count as three points. That's why the rule lists a ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, and an official as subsequently counting two points, but doesn't list a defender inside the arc, written to allow such a deflected/blocked shot to count as three points.

johnny d's citation appears to be the "gold standard" in this situation.

4.41.4 - Situation B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. Ruling: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

Thanks guys. The title of this thread was "Fun With Two Or Three Points" and not only was it fun, it was also educational.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... A ball that is thrown into the goal from behind the three point arc in the frontcourt scores three points ...

Frontcourt? Really? Only two points from the backcourt? It always annoys me when the NFHS is recklessly foot loose and fancy free with its language. Not a big deal here (probably written to account for wrong way baskets), but just another reminder of their poor editing skills.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

5-2-1: A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team’s own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

Just to be clear, only two points if the ball touches the floor, or an official, inside, or outside the arc. Right?

[BillyMac]

Center A2, the tallest player in the league, sets a ball screen for point guard A1, the shortest player in the league. Both A1 and A2 are outside the three point arc. Because of the great screen, A1 finds himself undefended for a split second and attempts a three point try, however, after A1 releases the try, the ball (on the way up) strikes A2 in the head. The ball awkwardly ricochets high into the air, and subsequently passes through the basket.

Two points, or three points? Is this like the alley-oop pass? And remember, the teammate, A2, is outside (not inside) the arc.

Easy extra credit: Same thing, but horn to end period sounds after the ball ricochets off A2's head, but before the ball enters the basket?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Center A2, the tallest player in the league, sets a ball screen for point guard A1, the shortest player in the league. Both A1 and A2 are outside the three point arc. Because of the great screen, A1 finds himself undefended for a split second and attempts a three point try, however, after A1 releases the try, the ball strikes A2 on the top of his head. The ball awkwardly ricochets high into the air, and subsequently passes through the basket.

Two points, or three points? Is this like the alley-oop pass? And remember, the teammate, A2, is outside (not inside) the arc.

Easy extra credit: Same thing, but horn to end period sounds after the ball ricochets off A2's head, but before the ball enters the basket?

If the ball hit the head of A2 and he was clearly not anywhere near the basket then I believe it should be ruled a 2.

The basket on the extra credit would not count because the try was over when it hit A2 on top of the head. Clearly, they are not shooting the ball or the shot is over at that point.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The basket on the extra credit would not count because the try was over when it hit A2 on top of the head.

Agree.

4-41-4: The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If the ball hit the head of A2 and he was clearly not anywhere near the basket then I believe it should be ruled a 2.

Won't agree, or disagree with you. I didn't have a prepared answer. I need to ponder it a while more.

Not sure what being "near the basket" has to do with the situation? To be clear, while A2 was not anywhere near the basket, neither was A1, they were both outside the three point arc. The disparity in the heights of both players and the closeness of shooter A1 to his screener, put screener A2's head in the way of the "normal" upward trajectory of A1's three point attempt.

While we allow a successful three point try, and a successful three point pass (alley-oop), do we allow a "successful" three point defection?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Not sure what being "near the basket" has to do with the situation? To be clear, while A2 was not anywhere near the basket, neither was A1, they were both outside the three point arc. The disparity in the heights of both players and the closeness of shooter A1 to his screener, put screener A2's head in the way of the "normal" trajectory of A1's three point attempt.

Did you say "awkwardly ricochets" into the basket? So I am assuming that that means that the shot or the ball is nowhere near the basket or has a chance to go in otherwise. At some level, we have to judge if the ball is going to the basket just like the other play originally. It is not explicit in the caseplays you posted, but there is something like that in other rules. So if I throw the ball to the sideline and the ball hit me and goes over to the basket and everyone was behind the 3-point line, you giving 3 points? Not sure I agree with that either.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Did you say "awkwardly ricochets" into the basket? So I am assuming that that means that the shot or the ball is nowhere near the basket or has a chance to go in otherwise.

While the original trajectory from A1 was "normal" and had a good chance to go in, the awkward ricochet from A2 was also "normal" enough to have a good chance of going in, demonstrated by the fact that it did, indeed, go in. There isn't only one single trajectory that works, there can be multiple successful trajectories from one launch spot (line drive versus arching shot), and certainly from two different launch spots.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

So if I throw the ball to the sideline and the ball hit me and goes over to the basket and everyone was behind the 3-point line, you giving 3 points?

Great example. I'm a big fan of extreme examples to test ideas.

I honestly don't know the answer. I'm not even "leaning" one way.

Again, while we allow a successful three point try, and a successful three point pass (alley-oop), do we allow a "successful" three point (everybody behind the arc) defection?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

At some level, we have to judge if the ball is going to the basket ... something like that in other rules.

Like the goaltending rule?

Goaltending is when a player touches the ball during a try, or tap, while it is in its downward flight, entirely above the basket ring level, outside the imaginary cylinder above the ring, and has the possibility of entering the basket.

Which begs the question, can an alley-oop pass from behind the three-point line (as we've discussed in this thread) that is on it's downward flight, entirely above the basket ring level, outside the imaginary cylinder above the ring, and having the possibility of entering the basket, be legally touched by a player?

Yes it can, it's not a try, even though it's been "kind of" treated as such since 2001-02 (remember Destiny's Child's "Bootylicious"?).

[BillyMac]

Maybe the important factor is if the ball is below (or above) the ring level when it touches (deflects off of) another player (offensive or defensive)?

4.41.4 - Situation B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. Ruling: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

In 4.41.4 Situation B the ball is on the way down (try is short). In my silly scenario, the ball is on the way up.

Screener A2's head was definitely below the ring.

Grasping at straws here, straws to support any answer, either way.