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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 18, 2021, 12:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref View Post
Given the recent emphasis on "aligning" the NF with the (men's) NCAA, a few issues are noteworthy:

1) Three things that should never be emulated between the NF and NCAA level rules/mechanics:
A) the 5-second closely guarded count should be maintained for NF games
B) the NF goal-tending rule should not be changed to the (men's) NCAA rule.
C) the 3 point arc should not be extended.
Just curious. What is different between HS/NCAA GT? Is it that NCAA adopted the NBA bar on touching after it hits the glass, or something else?

(I think you're probably right about the 3pt line, as it runs across so many levels of play. For the elite HS game, I think it would be better moved back, but that is such a small percentage of games.)
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 18, 2021, 03:39pm
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Comments On The Rules ...

2021-22 NFHS Basketball Comments On The Rules
State Option Added to Permit Shot Clock Use (2-14 New)

While several states have utilized a variety of options to permit the use of a shot clock in high school basketball, this allowance has not previously been permitted within the NFHS playing rules. Effective with 2022-23 program year, state associations may utilize a 35-second shot clock and in compliance with 2-14, be considered to be adhering to the playing rules. In adopting the option to utilize the shot clock, the committee remains cognizant of the many advocates and opponents of its use and has encouraged standardization among those who choose to adopt. In this way, future committees can gather and analyze consistent data as they evaluate any future considerations for change. The committee felt it appropriate to stop short of a nationwide rule change and instead allow for the continued analysis of both game and violation statistics as well as continuing to measure preferences in all states through surveys and questionnaire data. These decisions will need to be addressed within each of the states as they determine whether or not to pursue this path, and are, for now, best guided by each state’s analysis of the wants, needs and desires of its membership. The committee is therefore issuing guidance supplemental to the rules that list several areas for consideration by each state. These include the acquisition of the shot clock units, considerations for operators, protocols for officials including mechanics and duties, and the many other rules considerations that will need to be reviewed regarding full and partial resets, procedures for equipment failure and responsibilities for officials. This information will be placed supplemental to the actual playing rules to assist decision makers in this review.

Religious Head Coverings Rules Codified (3-5-4f New and 3-5-4, Exception B)
The playing rules were modified to add a provision that allows for religious head coverings to be permitted without state association approval as long as they are not made of abrasive or hard materials and provided, they securely fit. This change also removes the previous exception that required state association approval prior to this type of head covering being worn.

Officials Signal Change Made Eliminating Signal 37
The committee reviewed various changes that had been both made and requested at a variety of levels of basketball and determined that all player and team control fouls should utilize signal 36 (the hand behind the head) rather than the previous mechanics that utilized Signal 37 (the extended fist) for a team control foul. The proper sequence for either of these calls will now be signal 4 to indicate a foul, the use of the same arm to give signal 36 to indicate a player or team control foul, followed by signal 6 indicating the direction in which the ball will be put in play and then signal 7 to indicate the throw-in spot.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 18, 2021, 03:41pm
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Points Of Emphasis ...

NFHS 2021-22 Basketball Points Of Emphasis
Officiating Mechanics And Signals

The NFHS Rules Committee expects officials to adhere to the approved mechanics and signals. By using only approved mechanics and signals it adds to the professional image of the officials and shows greater respect for the game. Officials at the High School level are part of an education-based activity and the use of proper mechanics and the avoidance of “personal style” is essential. The reason for having signals is to communicate to players, coaches, table personnel, fans, and other officials on the floor. The use of approved signals leads to more clear communication between all those involved. To that end, for each ruling the proper sequence of signals is:

Stop the clock using the proper signal for a violation or foul.
Signal held ball or the type of foul or violation.
Verbally state the jersey color of the team entitled to the ball for the ensuing throw-in and point in the direction of that team’s basket.
Indicate the throw-in location.
Note: Due to the change in the approved signal used for player/team control foul, the “punch signal” has been eliminated.

Time-Out Administration
During a “dead” ball, either team may be granted a time out. During a live ball, only the team in control of the ball may be granted a timeout. It is important officials verify there is player control prior to granting the request.

Head Coach requesting: Coaches must understand that just because they have requested a timeout does not guarantee it will be granted. Remember, only the head coach or a player of the team in control of the ball may legally request a timeout. Officials must be sure the head coach is making the request. This request may be oral or visual.

Player control. The committee is still concerned that officials are granting timeouts while the ball is loose and not in player control. Over the years, an officiating philosophy has developed that teaches officials to grant loose ball timeouts quickly to avoid rough play and stop additional players from diving onto the loose ball pile. While preventing rough play is desirable, that concept cannot supersede the basic rule that a player must be in control of the ball for a timeout to be legally granted. When in doubt, do not grant the timeout. Additionally, do not hesitate to charge fouls for players “jumping on” another player. “Going for the ball” does not justify this rough play.

Granting Timeout Requests: Ideally, granting the timeout should be the primary coverage official. However, other official(s) may become aware that a timeout is being requested. In all cases, officials must be certain there is player control prior to granting the timeout request. Officials should also be aware of situations where timeouts are more likely to be requested e.g. end of the period/ game or a team has made several baskets in a row.

Unsporting Conduct
The committee is concerned about inappropriate conduct by players, bench personnel, coaches, officials, and spectators. Each group needs to view the activity in light of it being educationally based and not accept conduct that would not be tolerated in other educational settings. Therefore, each group has the responsibility to demonstrate civility and citizenship. To this effect: Game management needs to pay particular attention to spectators. Game Management should intervene when spectator behavior becomes unacceptable. This should be done prior to an official having to make such a request. When game management fails to address spectator behavior on their own, officials should remind game management to hold spectators accountable for their actions. A game ticket is not a license to abuse. Officials should not tolerate inappropriate conduct from coaches and/or players. The rules allow for a “warning” to be given to coaches and it should be utilized when appropriate. The team huddle is not a safe haven for coaches’ bad language. Just as a classroom teacher should not verbally abuse students, neither should coaches use bad language when addressing their players. Players are not permitted to “let off steam” by using profanity, even if it is not directed at an opponent or official. Being angry at oneself is no excuse. Officials are not exempt from unsporting conduct. Inappropriate references to players, coaches or other officials is not acceptable. Inappropriate behavior before, during or after the game should be reported to the official’s association /assignor.

Screening
Screening is a legal action to delay a player while touching the floor, without causing contact to prevent an opponent from reaching a desired position.
Legal screening is when the player who is screening an opponent:
Is stationary (within the vertical plane) when contact occurs.
Has both feet on the floor when contact occurs.
Time and distance are relevant.
The screener shall be stationary, except when both the screener and opponent are moving in the same path and the same direction.

Illegal screening is when the player who is screening an opponent:
Is moving when contact occurred.
Does not give sufficient distance in setting a screen outside the field of vision of a stationary opponent when contact occurred.
Does not respect the elements of time and distance of an opponent in motion when contact occurred.
A player may not use arms, hands, hips, or shoulders to force movement through a screen or hold the screener and then push the screener aside in order to maintain legal guarding position.
If the screen is set within the field of vision of a stationary opponent (front or lateral), the screener may establish the screen as close to the opponent as desired, provided there is no contact.

If the screen is set outside the field of vision of a stationary opponent, the screener must permit the opponent to take 1 normal step towards the screen without making contact. If the opponent is in motion, the elements of time and distance shall apply. The screener must leave enough space so that the player who is being screened is able to avoid the screen by stopping or changing direction. The distance required is never less than 1 and never more than 2 normal steps. A player who is legally screened is responsible for any contact with the player who has set the screen.

Euro-Steps, Spin Moves, And Jump Stops – Legal Or Illegal?
If executed within the parameters of the 4.44 traveling rule, each of these plays is legal. If not executed within the rules, each of these plays is illegal. High school players often attempt to emulate players they watch at higher levels but because collegiate and professional rules, interpretations, and directives vary, what is legal at one level may not be legal at another.

What is referred to as a Euro Step most often occurs when a player who is dribbling toward the basket stops dribbling, catches the ball while both feet are off the floor, lands on one foot and steps laterally with the other foot, often to step around a defender, all while facing the basket. The first foot to land on the floor is the pivot foot and if the player releases the ball on a try for goal or pass before the pivot foot touches the floor again, it is legal. If the player’s pivot foot touches the floor a second time before the player releases the ball, it is illegal.

What is often referred to as a Spin Move most often occurs when a player who dribbles toward the basket, catches the ball while faking to one side of the basket, plants a foot (becomes the pivot foot), while facing the basket, turns his or her back to the basket in an attempt to “spin” around a defender, then steps with the other foot. This would be legal but most often when the player’s back is to the basket during the spin, to again face the basket and get into position to release the ball on a try, the player must step again. This means the player’s pivot foot returns to the floor a second time, thus causing a traveling violation. Example: A1 is dribbling toward the basket from the left side. Defender B1 is facing A1 when A1 catches the ball and steps with the left foot while faking to the left, then spins (back to the basket), steps with the right foot while spinning and then steps with the left foot again. When beginning the spin move, A1’s left foot became the pivot foot and after the spin, when the left foot again touches the floor, A1 has violated. This type of play could originate from in front of the basket or from either side. Due to the speed of the player attempting a spin move and the physical difficulty of facing the basket when one foot touches the floor, then attempting to spin around a defender and release the ball before the pivot foot again touches the floor, the vast majority of spin move attempts are illegal.

What is often referred to as a Jump Stop is, by rule, an exception to the traveling rules. A legal jump stop occurs when a player who catches the ball with both feet off the floor, lands on one foot, jumps off that foot and lands with both feet touching the floor simultaneously. Many players are taught well and successfully execute legal jump stops. There are two situations that most often cause attempts at legal jump stops to become illegal. The first: After the player jumps off one foot, the player lands on one foot followed by the other (illegal “stutter step”), instead of landing simultaneously on both feet (legal). The second: After the player completes a legal jump stop, the player pivots. A legal jump stop is already an exception to the travel rule and a player who pivots with either foot after a jump stop is completed gains a huge advantage and has committed a traveling violation. Landing on both feet, under NFHS rules the player violates when his or her pivot foot touches the floor the second time.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 18, 2021, 03:41pm
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Points Of Emphasis Part II ...

Traveling - Basic Fundamentals
When beginning a dribble, a player must release the ball before lifting his or her pivot foot. A player who lifts the pivot foot before releasing the ball to begin a dribble has committed a traveling violation. It is always legal for a player to lift the pivot foot but the player must pass, shoot, or be granted a time-out before the pivot foot touches the floor again. It is not possible for a player to travel while dribbling the ball, bouncing the ball while out-of-bounds during a throw-in or prior to attempting free throw(s).

For officials, identifying a player’s pivot foot is, by far, the most important aspect of accurately ruling potential traveling violations. Videos, traveling presentations, and practice are effective tools available to officials who want to improve their accuracy of ruling potential traveling plays.

Traveling rules are relatively easy to learn and understand but because of the sheer number of potential traveling violations that occur in every game and the speed at which many of these plays occur, making a high percentage of accurate rulings is difficult. In some instances, officials appear to rule on these plays based on what it “looks like,” rather than what rules allow. To improve the teaching, execution, and accurate rulings of potential traveling situations, players, coaches, and officials should review relevant rule descriptions and take advantage of available information ... and practice!
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 18, 2021, 04:33pm
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Wake Me Up Before You Go Go (Wham!, 1984) ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
2021-22 NFHS Basketball Comments On The Rules
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
NFHS 2021-22 Basketball Points Of Emphasis
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 09:18am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref View Post
Given the recent emphasis on "aligning" the NF with the (men's) NCAA, a few issues are noteworthy:

1) Three things that should never be emulated between the NF and NCAA level rules/mechanics:
A) the 5-second closely guarded count should be maintained for NF games
B) the NF goal-tending rule should not be changed to the (men's) NCAA rule.
C) the 3 point arc should not be extended.
A) With the adoption of a shot clock this becomes less important. Easier to referee having less to do
B) Indifferent, may remove ambiguity around the rule for players and fans as they are more familiar with the NCAA rule.
C) Agreed
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 10:14am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
A) With the adoption of a shot clock this becomes less important. Easier to referee having less to do
B) Indifferent, may remove ambiguity around the rule for players and fans as they are more familiar with the NCAA rule.
C) Agreed
I will say I think the Men's rule is harder to officiate. But I am not going to get upset if that were to change. It would only really become an issue at the boys side for the most part and does not become a real issue at the boys side either at the high school level with many schools.

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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 01:06pm
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[QUOTE=so cal lurker;1043358]Just curious. What is different between HS/NCAA GT? Is it that NCAA adopted the NBA bar on touching after it hits the glass, or something else?

SoCalLurker: AFAIU, the goal-tending rules vary: For NF, the thrown ball can touch the backboard and as long as the ball is still going upwards, then it's OK to Block that shot. For NCAA, once a shot hits the backboard [even while still going up] it is illegal to Block that shot.

You may ask, why does Kansas Ref make these suggestions? Here are my justifications:

1) For "5 seconds closely guarded count": What is the purpose of pre-professional[i.e., high-school] basketball? It is to learn the rules of the game, improve your overall playing ability, and possibly derive pleasure from a lifelong sport that you can participate in and be an informed spectator of. Ergo, one skill to develop is defensive footwork and body placement; the 5 second closely guarded count rewards the development and implementation of that key skill. Yes, I understand that hypothetically using a 'shot clock' could obfuscate the 5 second count; however, the skills of defensive footwork and body placement that a young player learns thru vigorous application of ''closely guarded'' does afford them skills that are transferable to other areas of basketball, such as perimeter guarding, post defense, and even being properly positioned to take a "charge".

2) Shot blocking in NF vs. NCAA: For NF, the thrown ball can touch the backboard and as long as the ball is still going upwards, then it's OK to Block that shot. For NCAA, once a shot hits the backboard [even while still going up] it is illegal to Block that shot. So why maintain a distinction between the two levels? Again, I ask, what is the purpose of pre-professional basketball? To teach and learn skills of play. Jumping, anticipating the shot, and being reactive on defense are skills that are important to be learned--moreover, the chance to block a shot legally should not be infringed upon.

3) 3 point arc; no change is necessary due to 1) the distance is fine and within the capability for the vast majority of pre-professional players; and 2) the cost to the schools to remove and replace lines is yet another cost that is not necessary.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 01:30pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I will say I think the Men's rule is harder to officiate. But I am not going to get upset if that were to change. It would only really become an issue at the boys side for the most part and does not become a real issue at the boys side either at the high school level with many schools.

Peace
agree....is is much more difficult to tell, particularly when you have a body of officials that is at least somewhat less likely in a lot of cases to be in a good position.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 02:48pm
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1. I would modify the closely guarded count to only operate on a held ball. With the shot clock, if a player is wasting time by dribbling in place, that's on him, not necessarily because the defender is doing a good job of containing him. However, if a player is closely guarding an opponent holding the ball, and denying him the opportunity to pass or shoot for 5 seconds, that should be rewarded. This is probably the rationale that NCAA men's, NCAA women's, and FIBA rules use to limit closely guarding rules to players holding the ball.

2. I have no issue with making that change (making blocking a ball off the backboard goaltending). Chances are that a ball off the backboard meets the criteria for goaltending anyway (above the height of the basket, on its downward flight, and with a chance to score), so there would be no confusion if that officially became the NFHS rule as well.

3. I would have to agree with not changing the 3-point line distance. Most high schoolers won't be able to shoot from the college men's line with any consistency, especially not girls. There is a reason that there is a difference between the NCAA men's and women's 3-point lines, and the WNBA and NBA 3-point lines.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 03:32pm
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Newton's Laws ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
... Chances are that a ball off the backboard meets the criteria for goaltending anyway ... on its downward flight ...
Not immediately after the ball touches the backboard. Think back to your high school geometry, trigonometry, and physics classes. Now think of a typical high school layup. Ball is often released from under the ring (especially in girls high school games and most middle school games) and is moving upward after the release, it then hits the backboard, bounces (reflects) off the backboard at same angle of the incident angle, still with some upward momentum, and then continues to move upward until the force of gravity takes over and pulls it back down into the basket.

Law of Reflection happens on a pool table all the time.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu May 20, 2021 at 11:12am.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 05:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Not immediately after the ball touches the backboard. Think back to your high school geometry, trigonometry, and physics classes. Now think of a typical high school layup. Ball is often released from under the ring (especially in girls high school games and most middle school games) and is moving upward after the release, it then hits the backboard, bounces (reflects) off the backboard at same angle of the incident angle, still with some upward momentum, and then continues to move upward until the force of gravity takes over and pulls it back down into the basket.

Happens on a pool table all the time.
For rules purposes, it is considered on its downward flight. It is not meant actually be seen that way. And the rule also states that if any part of the ball is above the ring, which is the case if the ball touches the backboard in almost every case. So it is just a different rule and the ball hitting the backboard is considered off-limits and has a chance to go in as well.

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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 05:51pm
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High School Goaltending/Backboard ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
For rules purposes, it is considered on its downward flight.
I kind of understand the NCAA goaltending/backboard rule (thanks anyway for the NCAA explanation), but I was 100% talking about the NFHS (high school) rule with ilyazhito.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... think of a typical high school layup ...
In it's full context, ilyazhito was advocating automatically making blocking a ball off the backboard goaltending in high school (as in college), implying that balls in this situation were probably mostly on their downward flight anyway, and I replied with a scientific/mathematical rebuttal to a part of his post.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu May 20, 2021 at 10:07am.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 20, 2021, 03:29pm
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Again, it depends on the angle of the shots. If a jump shot or set shot (many free throw attempts are set shots) hits the backboard, it will go down. Some layup attempts will go down as well, especially from boys who are able to jump and release the ball above the rim level. In these cases, the ball will be on its downward flight from the backboard. Changing the rule to make all balls of the backboard be considered as on their downward flight would simplify goaltending enforcement.
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Old Thu May 20, 2021, 03:59pm
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Gravity ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
If a jump shot or set shot (many free throw attempts are set shots) hits the backboard, it will go down.
Because by the trajectory, it's already on it's way down.

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