Fun With The Act Of Shooting …

[BillyMac]

IAABO Make The Call Video

https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...kdPgleKg%3D%3D

Was player still in act of shooting when foul occurred? Had shooter returned to the floor before the foul was committed?

Two choices: The player was in the act of shooting when fouled. The player returned to the court and was not in the act of shooting.

My comment: The player was in the act of shooting when fouled. Tough call. The act of shooting begins with the start of the try for field goal and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne shooter. The airborne shooter is considered to be in the act of shooting. White #3 was an airborne shooter and had not yet returned to the floor (barely, by milliseconds) when she was fouled by Black #15.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Tough call ... White #3 was an airborne shooter and had not yet returned to the floor (barely, by milliseconds) when she was fouled by Black #15.

The only way that I could make this call was by watching the video at 1/4 speed (only available to IAABO members) and stopping it when White #3 returned to the floor.

At regular speed, I was leaning toward White #3 having returned to the floor and not in the act of shooting, next looking for a live ball/dead ball. The foul occurred during a live ball, the ball was still in flight. Count the basket. Since it appears that White was not in the bonus, give White the ball on the endline.

[JRutledge]

It looks like the arm was hit in the air. And unless obvious, I am calling a shooting foul. This a harder play in a girl's game because players do not jump as high in some of these cases. But no reason to make this complicated and then awarded the ball out of bounds or give a bonus free throw situation. It has to stand out as nothing but after the shot IMO.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

But no reason to make this complicated and then awarded the ball out of bounds or give a bonus free throw situation.

Only offered this alternate situation for those that believed that there was a foul, and that the foul came after the shooter contacted the floor.

Just wanted to emphasis that in this alternate case that the ball was still live since it was still in flight, that contacting the floor doesn't automatically make the ball dead (not wanting to go down the "dead ball foul must be intentional, or flagrant" rabbit hole).

In this video, the ball going in the basket makes the ball dead, not anything before that.

Note: Early returns have quite a few IAABO members commenting the shooter returns to the floor before she was fouled.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The only way that I could make this call was by watching the video at 1/4 speed (only available to IAABO members) and stopping it when White #3 returned to the floor.

At regular speed, I was leaning toward White #3 having returned to the floor and not in the act of shooting, next looking for a live ball/dead ball. The foul occurred during a live ball, the ball was still in flight. Count the basket. Since it appears that White was not in the bonus, give White the ball on the endline.

The swipe by black happens when white is at the apex of her jump. Assuming that's the foul call, it's easy to see she was in the air.

And, I agree with Raymond -- the "way it's called" is to give the benefit of the doubt to a shooting foul -- even if the player has returned to the floor, if they are still "completing the normal actions associated with a shot" (my words) call the shooting foul.

[Raymond]

I don't split hairs on these plays. Unless it is obvious that they have already returned to the floor, I'm considering the foul in the act of shooting.

And if she didn't hit her arm, which I haven't looked hard enough to see if she did or not, there's a possibility I wouldn't have a whistle on this play. The calling official reports a push to the table. The shooter jumps forward on this play.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

... And if she didn't hit her arm, which I haven't looked hard enough to see if she did or not, there's a possibility I wouldn't have a whistle on this play.

Surprised that IAABO didn't offer a third choice - no foul.

[Mike Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Raymond

The shooter jumps forward on this play.

It appears the defender jumped toward the shooter, leading to the pushing foul.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

It appears the defender jumped toward the shooter, leading to the pushing foul.

I see the defender turn her hip. I see the shooter landing forward of the spot where she initially jumped from.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It looks like the arm was hit in the air.

Originally Posted by Raymond

... if she didn't hit her arm, which I haven't looked hard enough to see if she did or not, there's a possibility I wouldn't have a whistle on this play. The calling official reports a push to the table. The shooter jumps forward on this play.

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

It appears the defender jumped toward the shooter, leading to the pushing foul.

Tough to call.

Not much A to B movement by the defender.

I ended up believing that defender Black #15's right arm hit airborne shooter White #3's right shoulder.

Tough to call in real time. Tough to call in 1/4 time.

[ilyazhito]

From my perspective, it was not an A to B foul, but an illegal use of hands foul. The illegal use of hands happened while the shooter was still airborne. Therefore, score the goal, and the shooter shoots one free throw.

[JRutledge]

I would have liked an endline view of the play. The official has a much better angle. It looks like it could not be a foul at all with the basic philosophy I have stated before on this site and many other places. But I am sure this foul was expected and likely no one said anything, so there you go.

Peace

[Mike Goodwin]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Tough to call.

Not much A to B movement by the defender.

I ended up believing that defender Black #15's right arm hit airborne shooter White #3's right shoulder.

Tough to call in real time. Tough to call in 1/4 time.

Not much movement? Look at the defender's feet before she jumps versus where when she lands. She's practically in the middle of the FTL and ends up nearly on the FTLL.

Obviously, we're stuck with the view from the camera angle, but the defender jumped toward the calling official, so his view would have been really good.

Plus, the official called a pushing foul, not illegal use of the hands, lending support for the A-to-B type of foul.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

Not much movement? Look at the defender's feet before she jumps versus where when she lands. She's practically in the middle of the FTL and ends up nearly on the FTLL.

Yes, the defender did move, but not directly toward the shooter (there was some glancing contact). Maybe I should have said that there was not much A to B movement, but there was some A to C movement.

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

... the defender jumped toward the calling official ...

Yes, but not directly toward the shooter.

The shooter dropped to the floor like a broken rag doll that was shot in the head with high powered rifle. I believe that this was a result of the hard arm to shoulder contact, not the glancing body to body contact. Watch for the direction that the shooter falls, it's not the direction of the body to body contact.

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

... the official called a pushing foul, not illegal use of the hands ....

The shooter's shoulder got hit with an arm, not a hand.

If there are a few different contact points on a shooter, my favorite signal is the push signal. It explains a lot different types of contact, like a "push" with one's arms, hands, thighs, or body.

The signal (and call) often isn't 100% kosher, but I still like it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I don't split hairs on these plays. Unless it is obvious that they have already returned to the floor, I'm considering the foul in the act of shooting.

Agree. The only time that I may call a foul after the shooter returns the floor, is on a three point attempt where the shooter clearly has already returned to the floor and then gets "taken out" by a defender running at the shooter whose momentum carries him into the "already landed" shooter.

Very rare, may go a few years between such calls. When I call these (rarely), this not an airborne shooter play, and thus becomes a common foul play (bonus, not bonus, free throws, throwin, etc.). Because of the distance (and time in flight) of the try (from three point range) it's usually occurs during a live ball (not wanting to go down the "dead ball foul must be intentional, or flagrant" rabbit hole).