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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 30, 2021, 01:16pm
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The problem with only pictures are we are seeing only a moment in time. If the defenders contacted the ball mostly and not anything else, then there was contact after the shooter forces the shot, that is a different spin on the play. Even if the arm was contacted first and then contact with the ball, that again is a different spin on the play. I will post a video of the other angle and show how much there was no contact until the blocked ball started. This to me was more about her taking on bigger players and not getting off a good shot. She was not getting off a good shot anyway and we would ignore this easily if the ball it touched or mostly touched, especially first.

This is the kind of foul I expect of those that primarily work girl's or women's games. Because again if a bigger men's player defends and even makes slight contact with other parts of the body, we definitely say, "Play on." And if you call a foul, they will directly tell you about bailing out players and marginal contact. I even had a foul call posted on my site several months back and the contact was on the wrist and not even the ball on a 3 point shot and people complained that the ball was gone and it had no influence on the play. This was not that at all. That very same official that made that call I just referenced is my supervior in one of my leagues. I had a play a couple of years ago where I had an A to B contact play, was told that the play was not a foul by my supervisor and by others and there was no ball contact whatsoever. But when I made the call, I got so much shit about it, I posted it on a website to ask for opinions. More contact there than on this play in the Baylor UConn game for sure.





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Last edited by JRutledge; Tue Mar 30, 2021 at 01:23pm.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 30, 2021, 01:37pm
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Different Format ...

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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 30, 2021, 01:46pm
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The Entire Play ...



From this video, it appears to me that the Center did get straight-lined.

Even with the limitations of a still photo, combine the still photo (far above) together with the live video, and the replay video from the near side and far side, to get the best idea (short of new videos from new angles) of what really happened, something the Lead (who didn't rotate over to the ball side) and the Center (straight-lined) were unable to see.

Trail maybe had the best angle but was she too far away to make a game saving call?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Mar 31, 2021 at 10:40am.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 30, 2021, 01:55pm
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You're never "too far away to make a game saving call." Especially when you have the best look on the crew.

But you had better be correct if you are the furthest away and putting air in the whistle with 0.4 left in the Elite Eight.

This is not a "strike down the middle" like the Auburn/Virginia play a couple years ago IMO. I just talked to a women's NCAA official who thought a no-call was correct. But I have also talked to peers who feel there had to be a whistle here. I guess our NCAAW Forum members will have to let us know if this play makes next season's preseason video.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 30, 2021, 01:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Have you seen this video that I posted earlier today?

Video: https://twitter.com/i/status/1376704066668093445
I have seen this play about 3 different angles. The angle from the picture that you and everyone has shown to say it was a foul. The endline angle which I made a video showing the ball being touched by the defender first. And the camera feed angle from the live action.

I think it is not a foul at all and we are playing the "There was contact" game that is bogus. Of course there was contact, two bigger players are defending a shot.

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 30, 2021, 02:02pm
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I work men's college basketball games. The UConn/Baylor play, the Oregon State block shot followed by the hit to the arm (this season's tournament), and the play Jeff just posted where the player gets hit in the head are fouls to me. That is based on watching videos of each play. The play from Goshen versus Grace should not have been a foul because the defender jumped straight up vertically with both hands above his head.



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Last edited by Raymond; Tue Mar 30, 2021 at 02:11pm.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 30, 2021, 02:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I work men's college basketball games. Both the UCoonn/Baylor play and the OSU block shot followed by the hit to the arm are fouls to me. That is based on watching videos of each play.
What’s the OSU play? Do you have a link?
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 30, 2021, 02:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Worst angle is the live camera feed.

Still photo clearly shows contact on DiJonai Carrington's shooting elbow by #20 Olivia Nelson-Ododa before the ball is released.
I agree, but still 4-27 (or the NCAA Women's equivilent) applies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Endline angle video clearly shows #3 Aaliyah Edwards moving forward (A to B) toward Carrington and then through and past Carrington's original position, with Carrington ending up on the floor.
She is absolutely moving forward, but she does not make any contact with the player until she tops the ball. And that is usually not how A to B contact is judged at that level when there is a clear play on the ball. Women do not usually do that contact as high in the air.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Sure, Carrington's leaning back off balance to avoid a blocked shot might have had something to do with her ending up on the floor, but the body contact by Edwards certainly helped. Watch where Edwards ends up after the contact.
And it is a great girl's basketball call that would be scolded if called in the very same situation in a boy's or men's game. Been there and called some BS and was told about it directly. I am not stating anything I have not experienced and told why I should lay off that call at both the high school and college levels.

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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 30, 2021, 02:15pm
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Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
What’s the OSU play? Do you have a link?
I think he is talking about a play I posted earlier in the tournament, but have not put up on YouTube yet (I will but the CBS gets on my nerves).

I would agree with him it is similar, but that to me was two different acts. One guy blocked the ball and the other came over and hit the player in the head and arm I believe.

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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 30, 2021, 02:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
....





And it is a great girl's basketball call that would be scolded if called in the very same situation in a boy's or men's game. Been there and called some BS and was told about it directly. I am not stating anything I have not experienced and told why I should lay off that call at both the high school and college levels.



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I would not get scolded for making that call in any of my NCAA Men's basketball games or boys HS games.



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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 30, 2021, 02:29pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I would not get scolded for making that call in any of my NCAA Men's basketball games or boys HS games.
I would. It would start with the coaches, then the fans (don't care about them but mentioning it for context), then later some of my partners and supervisor. Happened a few times.

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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 30, 2021, 02:33pm
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I also have more of a foul on #20 for hitting elbow than I do on the other player for the body contact. Neither defender touched the ball.

If the Lead moves with the play, he sees that hit to the elbow.

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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 30, 2021, 02:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Protect the airborne shooter all the way back down to the floor.

Especially since Carrington was pushed while still holding the ball after the ball was "topped" by the Edwards.
Then we do not call very many fouls as a community. Again when you show me a block that does not involve contact of some kind, then I will show you a bunch of free throw we do not reward. Again, all contact is never a foul. Even the airborne shooter rule does not say any contact is a foul. That is why 4-27 is there, clearly.

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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 30, 2021, 02:48pm
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U Can't Touch This (MC Hammer, 1990) ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Neither defender touched the ball.
You could be correct about #20 Olivia Nelson-Ododa (the elbow hitter).

#3 Aaliyah Edwards did get her hand on the ball before it was released. Not a block, just a touch before the ball was released, while still in Carrington's hands.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 30, 2021, 02:55pm
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Protect The Airborne Shooter ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Then we do not call very many fouls as a community.
Protect does not mean to call every single instance of contact a foul. Never did. It means to stay with the the airborne shooter and watch for illegal contact that creates an defensive advantage, or an offensive disadvantage, as well considering landing spot safety concerns. It also means that for a second, or two, to let your partner(s) worry about the rebounding fouls.

In Carrington's case, she hadn't even released the ball when she got pushed, certainly a illegal disadvantage for an airborne shooter.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Mar 30, 2021 at 05:58pm.
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