Errant Pass

[Valley Man]

A1 is ready to make a pass to A2. As A1 goes to make the pass and A2 makes a back door cut. The pass from A1 is weak and bounces several times since this occurred out front and no one is around. A1 recovers the errant pass. I say legal play.

Case play best I can do is 4.15.4.D and 4.44.3 C (b)

Any more help needed?

[Raymond]

Had A1 already dribbled prior to this action? Can't discuss this play without that information. And that information allows you to answer your own question.

[Valley Man]

A1 had not dribbled it makes this a legal play.

If A1 had dribbled, it makes the play illegal.

Still using same case play references?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Valley Man

A1 is ready to make a pass to A2. As A1 goes to make the pass and A2 makes a back door cut. The pass from A1 is weak and bounces several times since this occurred out front and no one is around. A1 recovers the errant pass.

Originally Posted by Valley Man

A1 had not dribbled it makes this a legal play.

Legal, but if "recovers" means A1 held the ball, he can't legally dribble again.

If "recovers" means that A1 simply "continued" dribbling the "self" bounce pass, that's also legal.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Valley Man

A1 had not dribbled it makes this a legal play.

If A1 had dribbled, it makes the play illegal.

Still using same case play references?

If it is clearly a pass (clean) then it is only the start of a dribble. If there is a fumble, then the player can always get their fumble.

So that is why it matters if they have dribbled before, because a player can pick up what is essentially a dribble. And they can always pick up a fumble. Some judgment there, but if a player is fast enough to get a pass in the first place, that is pretty darn good.

Peace

[so cal lurker]

Caveat: the pass can become the start of the dribble so long as it is the legal start of a dribble--the "passer" didn't lift the pivot foot before releasing the ball.

Aside: a couple of years ago, the NBA added a specific prohibition on a self-pass, which would seem to mean that in the NBA this would not be permitted. Seemed an odd add to me.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Legal, but if "recovers" means A1 held the ball, he can't legally dribble again. If "recovers" means that A1 simply "continued" dribbling the "self" bounce pass, that's also legal.

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

... the pass can become the start of the dribble so long as it is the legal start of a dribble, the "passer" didn't lift the pivot foot before releasing the ball.

Great point. Lifting the pivot foot before releasing the ball is legal for a pass or a try (or to do nothing like standing like a flamingo), but not legal to start a dribble, which would result in a traveling violation.

Like the way so cal lurker put the word "passer" in quotes.

[Valley Man]

So if A1 had dribbled and then stopped with ball in 2 hands and then made the errant pass and the ball stuck the floor when no one was home and A1 is the first to touch this is a violation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

... a couple of years ago, the NBA added a specific prohibition on a self-pass ...

I can't disagree with so cal lurker because I know more about Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle than I know about NBA rules.

But I would still like to see how the NBA defines a self-pass?

Steph Curry receives an inbound pass while all alone while deep in his backcourt. He catches the inbound pass with two hands and then turns around, pivoting without moving, or lifting, his pivot foot, and then immediately, with those same two hands, tosses the ball into the air, with the ball striking the court several feet in front of him, and he allows the ball to bounce a few times on the court. He then sees that he's wide open, catches up to the ball, catches it with two hands, lifts both feet, obviously including his pivot foot, and attempts a seventy-five foot jump shot, that hits nothing but net.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... And they can always pick up a fumble.

Thanks JRutledge. Good reminder.

4-21: A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player’s grasp.

Fumble, dribble, fumble is legal.

Dribble, fumble, dribble is illegal.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Valley Man

4.15.4.D and 4.44.3 C (b) ...

4.15.4 SITUATION D: While dribbling: (a) A1 bats the ball over the head of an opponent, runs around the opponent, bats the ball to the floor and continues to dribble; (b) the ball bounces away but A1 is able to get to it and continues to dribble; (c) the ball hits A1’s foot and bounces away but A1 is able to overtake and pick it up; or (d) A1 fumbles the ball in ending the dribble so that A1 must run to recover it. RULING: Violation in (a), because the ball was touched twice by A1’s hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor. In (b), even though the dribble was interrupted it has not ended and A1 may continue the dribble. In (c), the dribble ended when A1 caught the ball; and it ended in (d) when it was fumbled. Even though the dribble has ended in (c) and (d), A1 may recover the ball but may not dribble again. (9-5)

4.44.3 SITUATION C: (a) A1 tosses the ball from one hand to the other while keeping his/her pivot foot in contact with the floor; or (b) A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Legal in (a), but a traveling violation in (b). In (b), since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal. (9-4)

[Raymond]

My high school commissioner is an NBA Finals referee. Our lead on-court trainer is an NBA referee. The two referees whom you referenced above as the children of a forum member came up through my high school board. I referee every summer using NBA rules in a Pro-Am for the aforementioned trainer of my high school board, often side-by-side with G-League and NBA referees.

I am familiar enough with how NBA referees operate.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

My high school commissioner is an NBA Finals referee. Our lead on-court trainer is an NBA referee. The two referees whom you referenced above as the children of a forum member came up through my high school board. I referee every summer using NBA rules in a Pro-Am for the aforementioned trainer of my high school board, often side-by-side with G-League and NBA referees. I am familiar enough with how NBA referees operate.

Great, a perfect source for NBA citations on the Forum

That being said, how does the NBA define a self-pass? Are there any NBA interpretations regarding such? What's the violation? Travel? Illegal dribble? Self-pass? Something else? Also, a general question, does the NBA have an "intent and purpose" clause in its rulebook, and is it similar to the NFHS clause?

Thank you in advance.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Great, a perfect source for NBA citations on the Forum

That being said, how does the NBA define a self-pass? Are there any NBA interpretations regarding such? What's the violation? Travel? Illegal dribble? Self-pass? Something else? Also, a general question, does the NBA have an "intent and purpose" clause in its rulebook, and is it similar to the NFHS clause?

Thank you in advance.

When I'm refereeing the Pro-Am, I'll know when A1 throws a pass intended for a teammate and call a violation if A1 retrieves the pass. I don't need to know the verbiage in the rule book.

https://videorulebook.nba.com/

https://official.nba.com/rulebook/

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[Nevadaref]

For the situation in the OP, there is an NFHS play ruling in which B1 grabs a rebound, pivots, and attempts an outlet pass to a teammate who runs away without knowing that the pass was thrown his way. B1 runs over and collects the ball after it has bounced on the court. The ruling is that this is a legal play and that the action constitutes a dribble by B1.