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Old Wed Feb 24, 2021, 05:33pm
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Kicked ball?

A long discussion at our association meeting Monday night. The discussion surrounds the words "intentionally".
Rule reference:

9-4 it is a violation to "intentionally kick it, as in 4-29"
4-29 "Kicking the ball is intentionally striking it with any part of the leg or foot."

Is it a violation/intentional if the ball hits the leg of the defender when:

a: The defender jumps straight up and into the path of the ball, but the legs stay within the frame of the defender. (ie: as in a legal screen)

b: The defender jumps sideways into the path of the ball, but the legs are not extended and stay within the frame of the defender.

c: The defender jumps and spreads his legs wide as in a jumping jack?

d: Does your answerer change to any of the above if this is an out of bonds throw in and the thrower is trying to hit the leg of the defender (ie. count at 4 secs and thrower is trying to get a deflection OOB off of the defender.

The discussion arose from a non-call late in a tight game with under 15 sec to go. Just looking for some more opinions.
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Old Wed Feb 24, 2021, 05:57pm
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a,b,and c are all intentional, because the defender is jumping into the path of the ball. Jumping towards the ball means that the defender intends to play the ball, and since playing the ball with the leg or foot is illegal, therefore the defender contacting the ball in this situation is intentionally striking the ball with the leg or foot and by definition illegal. If the ball is heading towards the defender, likely nothing, but if the defender is heading towards the ball, especially on a throw-in, and contacts it with the lower body, I have a kicking violation.
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Old Wed Feb 24, 2021, 06:22pm
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Ball hit leg or leg hit ball? Former is nothing, the latter is a violation. Have to see what happened to make a call.
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Old Wed Feb 24, 2021, 07:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB View Post
Ball hit leg or leg hit ball? Former is nothing, the latter is a violation. Have to see what happened to make a call.
Sounds good.

Rule of thumb here in my little corner of Connecticut: If it's a defensive play, consider a kick (not automatic). If it's an offensive play, probably not a kick.

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...tml#post962866
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Feb 25, 2021 at 01:41pm.
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Old Wed Feb 24, 2021, 07:57pm
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Old Wed Feb 24, 2021, 08:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
a,b,and c are all intentional, because the defender is jumping into the path of the ball. Jumping towards the ball means that the defender intends to play the ball, and since playing the ball with the leg or foot is illegal, therefore the defender contacting the ball in this situation is intentionally striking the ball with the leg or foot and by definition illegal. If the ball is heading towards the defender, likely nothing, but if the defender is heading towards the ball, especially on a throw-in, and contacts it with the lower body, I have a kicking violation.
To be clear to the OP, what is quoted above is not the NFHS interpretation of the rule. It is a personal opinion expressed by a single official and many of us on this forum would not agree with him.
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Old Wed Feb 24, 2021, 09:17pm
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I judge whether or not there is intentionality of putting the leg in the path of the ball.

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Old Thu Feb 25, 2021, 09:29am
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Man we complicate these things too much. If you feel it is intentional or used the leg to purposely contact the ball, then call the violation. If you do not feel that took place, it is nothing. We get paid to make judgments, that is all. Use your best judgment and try to be consistent as you want to be.

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Old Thu Feb 25, 2021, 01:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
This is why we get paid the big bucks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Man we complicate these things too much ... We get paid to make judgments
Sometimes we're (definitely include me in this group) just looking for a "right words", or a "rule of thumb", to help us to understand the rules (not just kicking) to make good judgments, or to help us explain the rules to a questioning coach.

But JRutledge and BryanV21 are correct, we are paid professionals that need to be confident and to trust our own judgement.

Kicking the ball is intentionally striking it with any part of the leg or foot. The rule (to quote President Trump) "is what it is".

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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Feb 25, 2021 at 02:38pm.
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Old Thu Feb 25, 2021, 01:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyo96 View Post
A long discussion at our association meeting Monday night. The discussion surrounds the words "intentionally".
Rule reference:

9-4 it is a violation to "intentionally kick it, as in 4-29"
4-29 "Kicking the ball is intentionally striking it with any part of the leg or foot."

Is it a violation/intentional if the ball hits the leg of the defender when:

a: The defender jumps straight up and into the path of the ball, but the legs stay within the frame of the defender. (ie: as in a legal screen)

b: The defender jumps sideways into the path of the ball, but the legs are not extended and stay within the frame of the defender.

c: The defender jumps and spreads his legs wide as in a jumping jack?

d: Does your answerer change to any of the above if this is an out of bonds throw in and the thrower is trying to hit the leg of the defender (ie. count at 4 secs and thrower is trying to get a deflection OOB off of the defender.

The discussion arose from a non-call late in a tight game with under 15 sec to go. Just looking for some more opinions.
a. never be a violation.

b. may or may not be a violation....did the thrower fake the defender into jumping that way then threw the ball. If so, no violation. Even if the ball were thrown first, I'd lead towards no violation as the foot/leg wasn't extended to play the ball...the feet have to stay attached to the body.

c. violation every time.

d. Yes...if I think the thrower deliberately threw the ball off of the defender, then it can't be a violation as it wasn't the defender deliberately contacting the ball with the leg.
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Old Thu Feb 25, 2021, 02:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
... if I think the thrower deliberately threw the ball off of the defender, then it can't be a violation as it wasn't the defender deliberately contacting the ball with the leg.
... and if the ball ricochets directly back to the inbounder, guess who gets the ball next? Three guesses. First two guesses don't count.
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Old Fri Feb 26, 2021, 09:44am
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