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Old Sat Feb 20, 2021, 11:51am
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2000-2001 Interp

A fellow official had this play in his game recently.

A1 ends his dribble, jumps to attempt a shot, while airborne before releasing the ball on an attempt, A1 fumbles, A1 then lands on the floor and recovers the ball. The ball is never touched by another player.

Is this Interpretation from 2000-01 still relevant? I have always ruled this a fumble much like the Ncaa (which I post below for reference). I've looked and there does not appear that there is another situation that makes this decision obsolete for the Fed.

2000-2001 BASKETBALL INTERPRETATIONS
SUPPLEMENT #1 (11/9/00)

SITUATION 1: A1 is an airborne shooter preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt. Instead of releasing the ball on the try, A1 fumbles the ball (while still in the air) and drops it. A1 then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball. RULING: Traveling violation. While airborne the ball must be released for a try or pass. (4—43-3a; 94)

Ncaa Ruling:
A.R. 85. After ending a dribble, A1 leaves the playing court to attempt a
try for goal. While airborne, A1 fumbles the ball and:
(1) Recovers the fumble while airborne; or
(2) Recovers the fumble after returning to the floor. A1 dribbles
the ball. The official calls a violation. Is the official correct?
RULING: Yes. In (1) and (2) A1 is permitted to recover the ball
but after recovering the ball is not allowed to start another dribble.
However, if a fumble is touched by another player and then recovered
by A1, while airborne or after a return to the floor, A1 is allowed to
start another dribble. If A1 had not previously dribbled the ball, and
while airborne fumbled and recovered the ball (while airborne or after
a return to the floor), he/she is permitted to start a dribble.
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Old Sat Feb 20, 2021, 12:16pm
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Twenty-Year Old Interpretation ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indianaref View Post
2000-2001 BASKETBALL INTERPRETATIONS SUPPLEMENT #1 SITUATION 1: A1 is an airborne shooter preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt. Instead of releasing the ball on the try, A1 fumbles the ball (while still in the air) and drops it. A1 then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball. RULING: Traveling violation. While airborne the ball must be released for a try or pass. (4—43-3a; 94)

Is this Interpretation from 2000-01 still relevant? I've looked and there does not appear that there is another situation that makes this decision obsolete for the Fed.
If there hasn't been a relevant rule change that would change this twenty-year old interpretation, or an opposing casebook play, or an opposing annual interpretation, then it's still relevant (although some Forum members would thoughtfully challenge my statement).

Similar "up and down" situations:

4.44.3 SITUATION A: A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the ball out of A1’s hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or (d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it bounces. RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation. In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains live and subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Feb 20, 2021 at 01:52pm.
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Old Sat Feb 20, 2021, 12:20pm
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Up And Down ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indianaref View Post
2000-2001 BASKETBALL INTERPRETATIONS SUPPLEMENT #1 SITUATION 1: A1 is an airborne shooter preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt. Instead of releasing the ball on the try, A1 fumbles the ball (while still in the air) and drops it. A1 then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball. RULING: Traveling violation. While airborne the ball must be released for a try or pass. (4—43-3a; 94)
Check out the discussion here:

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1041261
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I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)
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Old Sat Feb 20, 2021, 12:32pm
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More Ups And Downs ...

I just added Indianaref's situation to my list of Misunderstood Basketball Rules. Are the statements thorough in covering such "up and down" situations? Anything missing? Are there any errors?

The shooter can retrieve one’s own airball, if the official considers it to be a shot attempt. It is not a violation for that player to start another dribble at that point.

When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked, is unable to release the ball, and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball.

If, in a similar situation, the defender simply touches the ball, the airborne shooter maintains control of the ball, chooses not to release the ball, and returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation.

If, in another similar situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot. It is not a violation for that player to start another dribble at that point.

When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and touches the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

When an airborne shooter is preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt, and instead of releasing the ball on the try, the airborne shooter fumbles the ball (while still in the air), drops it, and then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball, it’s a traveling violation. In this situation, while airborne, the ball must be released for a try or pass.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Feb 20, 2021 at 12:59pm.
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Old Sat Feb 20, 2021, 01:06pm
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Subsequent Possession And/Or Dribble ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
When an airborne shooter is preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt, and instead of releasing the ball on the try, the airborne shooter fumbles the ball (while still in the air), drops it, and then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball, it’s a traveling violation. In this situation, while airborne, the ball must be released for a try or pass.
How can I change this statement, in a simple manner, to account for the ball being touched by an opponent, or a teammate, before the airborne shooter touches it, thus allowing a subsequent possession and/or a dribble?

Or, should it not be mentioned at all?

This "up and down" paragraph is already long enough, and my entire list is a lot longer than I envisioned it when first written fifteen years ago.

I never meant to clarify, in simple language, every rule in the book, just commonly misunderstood rules; misunderstood because of complex language, different rule sets at different levels, or garden variety "myths".
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Feb 21, 2021 at 11:38am.
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Old Sun Feb 21, 2021, 11:08am
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Subsequent Possession ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
How can I change this statement, in a simple manner, to account for the ball being touched by an opponent, or a teammate, before the airborne shooter touches it, thus allowing a subsequent possession and/or a dribble?
How's this?

When an airborne shooter fumbles the ball (while still in the air) instead of releasing the ball on a try, drops the ball, and then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball, it’s a traveling violation. Also in this situation, if the fumbled ball is touched by another player before the airborne shooter touches it, it’s not a violation for that player to take possession of the ball and that player can legally start a dribble.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Feb 21, 2021 at 11:13am.
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Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 10:30pm
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Why is it a travel? AFAIK, a travelling violation requires player control of the ball, which is lost when a player fumbles. The reason why the ordinary "up and down", i.e. jumping in possession of the ball and landing with the ball, is a travel is that a player removes and replaces his pivot foot without releasing the ball. He controls the ball, yet tries to cheat the restrictions on moving the pivot foot = TRAVEL.

A player who fumbles the ball accidentally loses control of the ball, does not look to gain an advantage (rather he puts himself at a disadvantage), and has released the ball, although unintentionally. Once the ball has left his hands, he has no control of the ball, and no pivot foot. Therefore, it makes no sense why a player who fumbles the ball on an attempted try should be punished with a travel, in the same way that the NBA rule penalizing a player who shoots an airball and catching his own rebound with a travel also makes no sense.
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Old Tue Feb 23, 2021, 07:53am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Why is it a travel?
Becasue the rules does NOT ONLY say "it's a travel to lift the pivot foot and replace it" (your example); the rule ALSO says "it's a travel to lift the pivot foot and then NOT release the ball on a pass or try"
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Old Tue Feb 23, 2021, 09:07am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Why is it a travel? AFAIK, a travelling violation requires player control of the ball, which is lost when a player fumbles. The reason why the ordinary "up and down", i.e. jumping in possession of the ball and landing with the ball, is a travel is that a player removes and replaces his pivot foot without releasing the ball. He controls the ball, yet tries to cheat the restrictions on moving the pivot foot = TRAVEL.

A player who fumbles the ball accidentally loses control of the ball, does not look to gain an advantage (rather he puts himself at a disadvantage), and has released the ball, although unintentionally. Once the ball has left his hands, he has no control of the ball, and no pivot foot. Therefore, it makes no sense why a player who fumbles the ball on an attempted try should be punished with a travel, in the same way that the NBA rule penalizing a player who shoots an airball and catching his own rebound with a travel also makes no sense.
A few years ago the rules committee for NCAAM had similar thoughts and passed a ruling which is contrary to that of the NFHS.

The rationale at the NBA level for prohibiting a player from catching his own airball is that those athletes are so quick and can jump so well that they would take advantage of this situation in order to score easy baskets from close range.
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