The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 20, 2021, 11:23am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,716
Fun With Elbows …

Disclaimer: For IAABO Eyes Only: Below is not a NFHS interpretation, it's only an IAABO International interpretation which obviously doesn't mean a hill of beans to most members of this Forum.

https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...2FIE%2Bg%3D%3D

IAABO International Play Commentary
This is an intentional foul. If a player swings elbows excessively, (faster than the rest of the player’s torso), and contacts an opponent, it is at a minimum an intentional foul. If the contact is severe or the player ‘measures up’ the opponent, it is flagrant. (2012-13 POE) In this play, Red #35 swings her elbows in at a pace that exceeds the speed of the torso. This should be ruled an intentional personal foul. Officials only have rules support to rule this incidental contact or a common foul (player control foul) if the player's elbow was stationary when the contact occurred. A stationary elbow is defined as an elbow that is not moving faster than the rest of the player’s torso. (2012-13 POE)


Here is the breakdown of the IAABO members that commented on the video: Intentional Foul 36% (including me), Incidental Contact 23%, Common Foul 22%, Flagrant Foul 19%.

While I can understand the difference of opinion between an intentional foul or a flagrant foul, the percentage of commentators who believe this to be a common foul, or incidental contact, is disheartening. When will the NFHS learn that an eight year old Point of Emphasis that doesn’t make its way permanently into the rulebook is a recipe for disaster? How are inexperienced or rookie officials supposed to know this interpretation?

Stupid NFHS.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 20, 2021, 02:19pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,716
For The Good Of The Cause ...

NFHS 2012-13 Points Of Emphasis

Contact above the shoulders. With a continued emphasis on reducing concussions and decreasing excessive contact situations the committee determined that more guidance is needed for penalizing contact above the shoulders.

A player shall not swing his/her arm(s) or elbow(s) even without contacting an opponent. Excessive swinging of the elbows occurs when arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms and elbows is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot. Currently it is a violation in Rule 9 Section 13 Article.

Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and resulting penalties.
1. Contact with a stationary elbow may be incidental or a common foul.
2. An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.
3. A moving elbow that is excessive can be either an intentional foul or flagrant personal foul.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 20, 2021, 02:22pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,716
Stationary ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
IAABO International Play Commentary ... A stationary elbow is defined as an elbow that is not moving faster than the rest of the player’s torso. (2012-13 POE)
Really?

I figure we have three choices: not moving, moving but not excessively moving, and excessively moving.

Guess which choice I think "stationary" means?

__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Jan 20, 2021 at 03:23pm.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 20, 2021, 02:24pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,517
Are you having a conversation with yourself?

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 20, 2021, 02:39pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,716
I Talk To Myself ...

With apologies to the Divinyls (1990).

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Are you having a conversation with yourself?
Yes I am.

Second post was for the good of the cause (eight year old citation for those that don't go that far back).

Third post was because I spotted an error in IAABO's explanation that I hadn't spotted earlier.

Feel free to join in my conversation, it's get boring talking to myself, although I'm getting pretty good at it during this COVID lockdown. My cat's only familiar with WNBA rules and interpretations, so I don't bother discussing basketball officiating with her.

C'mon JRutledge. Here's a great chance for you to take a much deserved potshot at IAABO. It's all teed up for you.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Jan 20, 2021 at 03:26pm.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 20, 2021, 03:24pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post

C'mon JRutledge. Here's a great chance for you to take a much deserved potshot at IAABO.
I do not work under IAABO, so I really do not care what their rulings might be. What I do wish is the NF would address these issues with something more than some old interpretations and putting something in a publication every no and then from NASO. Not sure why the NF cannot make this clearer?

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 20, 2021, 04:22pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: SE Ohio
Posts: 1,103
[QUOTE=BillyMac;1041039]Really?

I figure we have three choices: not moving, moving but not excessively moving, and excessively moving.
/QUOTE]

Basically the excessive movement they are trying say is to be considered intentional/flagrant is one that is moving independent with the torso. Its they're complicated way of trying to have the turn-around-and-someone's-face-happens-to-be-in-the-way not being ruled as intentional/flagrant.

Still have nightmares from those local rules meetings where we wasted two, one-hour long meetings on that stupid thing.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 20, 2021, 04:38pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,716
Importance Of NFHS Rulebook And Casebook To Be Current And Updated ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I do wish is the NF would address these issues with something more than some old interpretations and putting something in a publication every now and then from NASO. Not sure why the NF cannot make this clearer?
Agree with 99% of your post. Not all officials belong to NASQ, so that shouldn't count.

What publication does every single high school official in the country get? A NFHS rulebbok and a NFHS casebook. Everything that rookie officials and experienced officials need to know should be in the current rulebook and current casebook (written on dead trees, or online). If points of emphasis are important, put them in the current rulebook and current casebook. If an interpretation is deleted from the casebook, the NFHS should give a reason (no longer valid due to a rule change, no longer valid due to a change in interpretation philosophy, or still valid but determined to be not needed (to save space) by the rules committee because the rule alone is sufficient for a proper interpretation).

Sure good trainers should be aware of old and odd interpretations from way back when, and teach such (assuming these are slill valid), but even trainers eventually "age out" and won't be aware of these ancient, but still valid points of emphasis and interpretations that aren't in current rulebooks and casebooks.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Jan 20, 2021 at 04:54pm.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 20, 2021, 04:41pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,716
Movement Not Excessive ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB View Post
Its they're complicated way of trying to have the turn-around-and-someone's-face-happens-to-be-in-the-way not being ruled as intentional/flagrant ...
That not what the point of emphasis states:

NFHS: An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.

If a player pivots with the arms (elbows) moving at the same rotational speed as the hips (body) and accidentally and unintentionally whacks an opponent in the head with an elbow, that's a classic example of an intentional foul under the eight year old point of emphasis.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Jan 20, 2021 at 04:50pm.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 21, 2021, 12:19pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: 3 hrs east of the western time zone
Posts: 862
Billy Mac - How many consecutive posts

BM - You were going for a personal best of consecutive posts before you were interrupted by Rut. BTW, what is your record for consecutive posts on any one thread?
__________________
Go ugly early, avoid the rush !!!!
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 21, 2021, 12:22pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,716
What's Next After Esteemed Forum Member ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Multiple Sports View Post
... consecutive posts ...
Gotta get to 20,000 posts any way that I can.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 21, 2021, 12:45pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: 3 hrs east of the western time zone
Posts: 862
Congratulatory Thread

BM - Maybe we can have a thread when you get to 20,000 that just congratulates you and you can respond to every post....
__________________
Go ugly early, avoid the rush !!!!
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 21, 2021, 12:50pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: 3 hrs east of the western time zone
Posts: 862
A Distant 2nd place....

Your 10,000 behind Rut in quanity and WAY more in quality....see how I did that. Two separate posts in 3 minutes....I'm coming after you.
__________________
Go ugly early, avoid the rush !!!!
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 21, 2021, 12:56pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,716
It's An Art ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Multiple Sports View Post
Maybe we can have a thread when you get to 20,000 that just congratulates you and you can respond to every post....
Like this? See how I did that? Comes second nature to me.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 21, 2021, 01:24pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,716
See How I Did That ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Multiple Sports View Post
Two separate posts in 3 minutes....I'm coming after you.
Amateur.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Elbows The_Rookie Basketball 14 Sat Feb 05, 2011 02:09pm
elbows jevaque Basketball 7 Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:00pm
Elbows aiem Basketball 9 Mon May 31, 2004 09:21pm
elbows rcwilco Basketball 15 Tue Jan 13, 2004 04:05pm
Elbows Brian Watson Basketball 2 Tue Oct 15, 2002 10:28am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:23am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1