With A Little Help From My Friends (The Beatles, 1967) ...

[Raymond]

#1) Official is incorrect right off the bat b/c the arrow is not set until the ball is at disposal because no one has yet established initial team control.

#2) why are you penalizing the throw-in team?

#3) continuous motion rules applies when the defense commits a foul on a shooter's teammate

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[Camron Rust]

Agree with Raymond on all.

For #2, the reason is that the throwin does not end with an illegal contact....it may end with legal contact in an illegal location (oob). If the original throwin came with the right to run the endline, A retains the right to run the endline for any infraction by B that occurs before the throw-in ends such that the throwin spot will still be on the endline.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Agree with Raymond on all.

For #2, the reason is that the throwin does not end with an illegal contact....it may end with legal contact in an illegal location (oob). If the original throwin came with the right to run the endline, A retains the right to run the endline for any infraction by B that occurs before the throw-in ends such that the throwin spot will still be on the endline.

Violation (as in the test question) or common foul. It becomes a designated spot on an IP or FP foul (and obviously moves to the division line if it's a T).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

2) After a successful field goal by Team B, A-1 releases a throw-in pass that is intentionally kicked by B-1 near the end line. The official awards the ball to Team A and instructs them that they may still move along the end line. Is the official correct?

My answer: No. Designated spot due to Team B violation. Kick touch ended the throwin.

Originally Posted by Raymond

#2) why are you penalizing the throw-in team?

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

For #2, the reason is that the throwin does not end with an illegal contact....it may end with legal contact in an illegal location (oob). If the original throwin came with the right to run the endline, A retains the right to run the endline for any infraction by B that occurs before the throw-in ends such that the throwin spot will still be on the endline.

Thanks guys.

7-5-7-B: A throw-in anywhere along the end line after a goal or an
awarded goal for basket interference or goaltending by a defensive player,
as in 9-12 Penalty 1, the team not credited with the score shall make a
throw-in from the end of the court where the goal was made and from any
point outside the end line and the officials shall signal such. A team retains
this privilege if the scoring team commits a violation or common foul (before
the throw-in ends and before the bonus rule is in effect) and the ensuing
throw-in spot would have been on the end line.

4-42-5-A: The throw-in ends when: The passed ball touches or is touched by another player inbounds.

4.42.5 SITUATION: Team A is awarded an alternating-possession throw-in. A1’s throw-in pass is illegally kicked by B2. RULING: As a result of B2’s kicking violation, Team A is awarded a new throw-in at the designated spot nearest to where the kicking violation (illegal touching) occurred. Since the alternating-possession throw-in had not been contacted legally, the throw-in has not ended and therefore, the arrow remains with Team A for the next alternating-possession throw-in. COMMENT: The kicking violation ends the alternating-possession throw-in and as a result, a non-alternating-possession throw-in is administered. When the ball is legally touched on the subsequent throw-in following the kicking violation, the arrow shall not be changed and shall remain with Team A. (6-4-5)

7.5.7 SITUATION B: Team A scores a field goal. B1 picks up the ball after the made basket, then proceeds out of bounds to start the throw-in process. B1 runs along the end line out of bounds while attempting to find an open teammate for the throw-in. Immediately after B1 releases the throw-in pass, (a) the ball is kicked by A2 near the end line; or (c) the ball is deflected out of bounds across the end line off of A2. RULING: In (a) A2 has violated by kicking the ball. In (a), Team B will be awarded a throw-in and retain the right to run the end line on the ensuing throw-in. In (c), A2 legally contacted the ball and subsequently hit it out of bounds, ending the throw-in. Team B is awarded a designated spot throw-in on the end line.

Is the official correct? Yes.

So are Raymond, Camron Rust, and bob jenkins.

How about those for a three person crew?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Because no one has yet established initial team control inbounds?

4-12-2-A: A team is in control of the ball: When a player of the team is in control.

4-12-1: A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball.

I agree with Raymond but would appreciate a citation.

4-12-1 used to have the word inbounds at the end. It was removed several years ago when the NFHS incorporated throw-in situations into the team control foul rule and mutilated the definition of team control.
What you can contend under the present wording is that the player who catches the ball while having one foot out of bounds is not holding a live ball. He is holding a dead ball because the ball immediately became dead the instant that it touched this player. Therefore, there is no player or team control established during this play and we must wait until the ball is placed at the disposal of an opposing player for the ensuing throw-in to set the AP arrow.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4-42-5-A: The throw-in ends when: The passed ball touches or is touched by another player inbounds.

4.42.5 SITUATION: Team A is awarded an alternating-possession throw-in. A1’s throw-in pass is illegally kicked by B2. RULING: As a result of B2’s kicking violation, Team A is awarded a new throw-in at the designated spot nearest to where the kicking violation (illegal touching) occurred. Since the alternating-possession throw-in had not been contacted legally, the throw-in has not ended and therefore, the arrow remains with Team A for the next alternating-possession throw-in. COMMENT: The kicking violation ends the alternating-possession throw-in and as a result, a non-alternating-possession throw-in is administered. When the ball is legally touched on the subsequent throw-in following the kicking violation, the arrow shall not be changed and shall remain with Team A. (6-4-5)

7.5.7 SITUATION B: Team A scores a field goal. B1 picks up the ball after the made basket, then proceeds out of bounds to start the throw-in process. B1 runs along the end line out of bounds while attempting to find an open teammate for the throw-in. Immediately after B1 releases the throw-in pass, (a) the ball is kicked by A2 near the end line; or (c) the ball is deflected out of bounds across the end line off of A2. RULING: In (a) A2 has violated by kicking the ball. In (a), Team B will be awarded a throw-in and retain the right to run the end line on the ensuing throw-in. In (c), A2 legally contacted the ball and subsequently hit it out of bounds, ending the throw-in. Team B is awarded a designated spot throw-in on the end line.[/I]

Is the official correct? Yes.

So are Raymond, Camron Rust, and bob jenkins.

How about those for a three person crew?

This rule used to include the word legally. It was removed in an unannounced, and incorrect in my opinion, editorial change a few years ago. All of the case play rulings continue to adjudicate these throw-in situations as if the word legal is still in the rule. The NFHS should put it back in the text.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

4-12-1 used to have the word inbounds at the end. It was removed several years ago when the NFHS incorporated throw-in situations into the team control foul rule and mutilated the definition of team control.
What you can contend under the present wording is that the player who catches the ball while having one foot out of bounds is not holding a live ball. He is holding a dead ball because the ball immediately became dead the instant that it touched this player. Therefore, there is no player or team control established during this play and we must wait until the ball is placed at the disposal of an opposing player for the ensuing throw-in to set the AP arrow.



This rule used to include the word legally. It was removed in an unannounced, and incorrect in my opinion, editorial change a few years ago. All of the case play rulings continue to adjudicate these throw-in situations as if the word legal is still in the rule. The NFHS should put it back in the text.

Agree on both counts.

[Altor]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

He is holding a dead ball because the ball immediately became dead the instant that it touched this player.

This would be my opinion as well. It may be an infinitesimally small time frame, but there was a point that the player touched the ball while out of bounds that came before he controlled the ball.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

4-12-1 used to have the word inbounds at the end. It was removed several years ago when the NFHS incorporated throw-in situations into the team control foul rule and mutilated the definition of team control. What you can contend under the present wording is that the player who catches the ball while having one foot out of bounds is not holding a live ball. He is holding a dead ball because the ball immediately became dead the instant that it touched this player. Therefore, there is no player or team control established during this play and we must wait until the ball is placed at the disposal of an opposing player for the ensuing throw-in to set the AP arrow.

This rule used to include the word legally. It was removed in an unannounced, and incorrect in my opinion, editorial change a few years ago. All of the case play rulings continue to adjudicate these throw-in situations as if the word legal is still in the rule. The NFHS should put it back in the text.

Originally Posted by Altor

It may be an infinitesimally small time frame, but there was a point that the player touched the ball while out of bounds that came before he controlled the ball.

Agree.

Great explanation, interpretation, word choice, and history lesson by Nevadaref.

I'm sticking with my original answer, and everybody else's answer, that the official in the exam question was incorrect.

Thanks guys.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

1) A-5 taps the jump ball toward the sideline. A-l steps on the sideline and then catches the ball. The official awards the ball to Team B and has the scorer set the alternating possession arrow in the direction of Team B's basket. Is the official correct?

I say the official is not correct, the alternating possession arrow should be set in the direction of Team A's basket, but I'm unsure of my answer.

Can anybody help me out with the correct answer, and a rulebook or casebook citation to explain the correct interpretation, even if I'm correct?

Originally Posted by Raymond

#1) Official is incorrect right off the bat b/c the arrow is not set until the ball is at disposal because no one has yet established initial team control.

Because no one has yet established initial team control inbounds?

4-12-2-A: A team is in control of the ball: When a player of the team is in control.

4-12-1: A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball.

I agree with Raymond but would appreciate a citation.