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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 20, 2020, 01:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Is the game over? Would the clock start on the illegal touch?
Already asked (but not answered) up in post #22.

And, if this had been an AP throw-in, would the arrow switch?
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 20, 2020, 02:08pm
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Illegal Touch ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
... if this had been an AP throw-in, would the arrow switch?
If the arrow doesn't switch on an illegal kick, I don't believe that it would switch on an illegal touch.

4.42.5 SITUATION: Team A is awarded an alternating-possession throw-in. A1’s throw-in pass is illegally kicked by B2. RULING: As a result of B2’s kicking violation, Team A is awarded a new throw-in at the designated spot nearest to where the kicking violation (illegal touching) occurred. Since the alternating-possession throw-in had not been contacted legally, the throw-in has not ended and therefore, the arrow remains with Team A for the next alternating-possession throw-in. COMMENT: The kicking violation ends the alternating-possession throw-in and as a result, a non-alternating-possession throw-in is administered. When the ball is legally touched on the subsequent throw-in following the kicking violation, the arrow shall not be changed and shall remain with Team A. (6-4-5)
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Nov 20, 2020 at 02:14pm.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 20, 2020, 02:56pm
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Fun With Jump Balls ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Would the clock start on the illegal touch?

5-9-4: If play is resumed by a throw-in, the clock must be started when the ball touches, or is legally touched by, a player on the court after it is released by the thrower.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Already asked (but not answered) up in post #22. And, if this had been an AP throw-in, would the arrow switch?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
If the arrow doesn't switch on an illegal kick, I don't believe that it would switch on an illegal touch.
How about an illegal tap on the way up by the jumper, or an illegal catch (as the first touch) by the jumper?

If the timer started clock, do we reset to 8:00 (or 4:00)?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Nov 20, 2020 at 02:58pm.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 20, 2020, 06:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
How about an illegal tap on the way up by the jumper, or an illegal catch (as the first touch) by the jumper?

If the timer started clock, do we reset to 8:00 (or 4:00)?
Not unless the jumper punched the ball with a closed fist.

The point is that the touching itself is not illegal in these situations, rather it is that the touching infringes some other rule of the game.

There are only two ways of illegally contacting the ball which would result in the clock not starting and the AP arrow not being switched—a kick or strike with a fist.

For any other touching, the clock should start and then be quickly stopped upon the sounding of the official’s whistle which recognizes the violation (OOB, BI, illegal tap during a jump, etc.).
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 21, 2020, 11:50am
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Re-Starting The Clock ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Not unless the jumper punched the ball with a closed fist. The point is that the touching itself is not illegal in these situations, rather it is that the touching infringes some other rule of the game. There are only two ways of illegally contacting the ball which would result in the clock not starting and the AP arrow not being switched—a kick or strike with a fist. For any other touching, the clock should start and then be quickly stopped upon the sounding of the official’s whistle which recognizes the violation (OOB, BI, illegal tap during a jump, etc.).
I would like to see further discussion regarding this topic.

5-9: Re-Starting The Clock
ART. 1 After time has been out, the clock must be started when the official signals the clock to start. If the official neglects to signal, the timer is authorized to start the clock as per rule, unless an official specifically signals continued time-out.
ART. 2 If play is started or resumed by a jump ball, the clock must be started when the tossed ball is legally touched.
ART. 3 If a free throw is not successful and the ball is to remain live, the clock must be started when the ball touches or is touched by a player on the court.
ART. 4 If play is resumed by a throw-in, the clock must be started when the ball touches, or is legally touched by, a player on the court after it is released by the thrower.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 21, 2020, 02:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Why would the game be over if it were BI?

(edited to clarify)
1-point difference. If a ball legally enters the basket, and it is not a try, 2 points are awarded, even if the ball was released from outside the 3-point line. If A is down by 1 point and is awarded 2 points, they win by 1 point.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 21, 2020, 03:03pm
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If the ball was illegally touched by B, causing basket interference, the game clock should not have started. B would receive the ball with a throw-in from the endline with time remaining due to the awarded points. If B legally swatted the ball while it was outside the cylinder, game over, B wins.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 21, 2020, 07:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
If the ball was illegally touched by B, causing basket interference, the game clock should not have started. B would receive the ball with a throw-in from the endline with time remaining due to the awarded points. If B legally swatted the ball while it was outside the cylinder, game over, B wins.
That is incorrect under NFHS rules. A touching which causes BI needs to be timed. You cannot say that it occurs with no time coming off the clock.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 22, 2020, 01:49am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
That is incorrect under NFHS rules. A touching which causes BI needs to be timed. You cannot say that it occurs with no time coming off the clock.
I wouldn't quite say that. I would say that it "may" be timed. If the official administering the throw is also the one calling the BI, they'd never chop time in, thus it is possible no time would come off the clock. That would be valid since the instant it is touched to cause BI it also causes the ball to become dead. However, it is also possible that two different officials may be involved where one indicates time should start and the other whistles the BI causing it to stop. It wouldn't be an error for the timer to start and stop it in that case.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 22, 2020, 02:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I wouldn't quite say that. I would say that it "may" be timed. If the official administering the throw is also the one calling the BI, they'd never chop time in, thus it is possible no time would come off the clock. That would be valid since the instant it is touched to cause BI it also causes the ball to become dead. However, it is also possible that two different officials may be involved where one indicates time should start and the other whistles the BI causing it to stop. It wouldn't be an error for the timer to start and stop it in that case.
If I’m the administering official, I’m chopping the clock and then blowing the whistle for the violation. Whatever time elapses before the timer can stop the clock is reasonable.

I believe that the NCAA rule is that a minimum of 0.3 seconds must come off the clock.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 22, 2020, 08:04am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post

I believe that the NCAA rule is that a minimum of 0.3 seconds must come off the clock.
Yes, if the ball is legally touched. I cannot find that term defined.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 22, 2020, 10:02am
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Citations ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
A touching which causes BI needs to be timed. You cannot say that it occurs with no time coming off the clock.
In regard to a throwin situation, I respectfully disagree.

If play is resumed by a throw-in, the clock must be started when the ball touches, or is legally touched by, a player on the court after it is released by the thrower.

It is illegal for a player to touch the ball, ring, or net while the ball is on the ring or within the basket. It is illegal for a player to touch the ball if it is in the imaginary cylinder above the ring. It is illegal for a player to touch the ball outside the cylinder while reaching through the basket from below.

These three examples of basket interference all involve illegal touches.

In a throwin situation, clock should not have started, and it should be reset if it was erroneously started.

Nevadaref: Any rulebook, casebook, or annual interpretation citations to further your cause?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Nov 22, 2020 at 02:33pm.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 22, 2020, 10:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Whatever time elapses before the timer can stop the clock is reasonable.

I believe that the NCAA rule is that a minimum of 0.3 seconds must come off the clock.
Important to point out that this is still not an NFHS rule. Yes, there is that interp from several years ago. But that’s it. It has never even appeared in the case book.

I don’t hate the interp. What I do hate is when it is misused or misunderstood. For example, I know too many officials who falsely use it as a reason to put 0.3 back on the clock when a shooting foul occurs right at the expiration of time for a period. As if they have a monitor in their head! Definite information is one thing; if you have a chance to look up and see ticks come after the whistle, that’s legit. But to arbitrarily put 0.3 on “just because” is wrong. You’d think there was something morally repulsive about having the free throws attempted with the lane spaces empty.

I get it: in the games we see on TV, the monitor can tell us the correct time, or prove that the foul occurred on the airborne shooter after an in-time release. We don’t have that luxury in high school. So without definite information, the time very well could expire on a bang-bang play. And there are rules and cases that tell us exactly how to handle that situation, none of which call for 0.3 to be put back on the clock.


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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 22, 2020, 10:31am
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Timing ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Nevadaref: Any rulebook, casebook, or annual interpretation citations to further your cause?
Unfortunately, this casebook play doesn't give us any information about timing:

9.11.2 SITUATION C: Since it is a violation for thrower A1 to throw the ball directly into the basket from out of bounds, what happens if B1 touches the throw-in pass while the ball is in the cylinder above A’s basket? RULING: B1 is charged with basket interference and a two-point goal is scored. Team B is awarded the ball for a throw-in anywhere along the end lines as after a scored goal except the official shall place the ball at the disposal of a player of Team B for a throw-in from any point outside the end line. (4-6)

1996 NFHS Interpretations
SITUATION #16: Since it is a violation for thrower Al to throw the ball directly into the basket from out-of-bounds, what happens, if Bi touches the throw in pass while the ball is in the cylinder above A’s basket?
RULING: Bl is charged with basket interference and a 2-point goal is scored. Team B is awarded the ball for a throw-in anywhere along the end line as after a scored goal except the official shall place the ball at, the disposal of a player of Team B, for a throw-in from any point outside the end line. (9-2-7; 9414)
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Nov 22, 2020 at 11:06am.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 22, 2020, 11:01am
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Allowance For The Touching ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
... there is that interp from several years ago ...
2009-10 Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2’s throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. RULING: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)
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