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  #76 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 24, 2020, 02:48am
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Neither of those cases make any suggestion that time must come off the clock. The kick wouldn't, of course, but the touch while OOB is silent on the point. I think that only allows for the possibility of timing coming off the clock, not that time must come off the clock.
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  #77 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 24, 2020, 09:00am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
There are certain duties that the R and not the U(s) should be doing. They are clearly listed in the rules. Having an R who actually adheres to the rules and does his duties doesn’t make him a jerk. One can handle things by the book in a nice way.

Generally the R is the most experienced or knowledgeable member of a crew and has been designated the R to display that through quality judgment in necessary situations. To have someone else step in and make those decisions probably isn’t best for the game or the postgame reports/complaints that may arise.

So I don’t see the problem with letting the designated person, the Referee, handle these matters. I do that when I’m am umpire. I will give the R info and he can apply it as he desires. When I’m the R, I listen to input from the U(s) and make the best decision that I can.

Personally, I wouldn’t want an Umpire correcting fouls or some other disputed item in the scorebook when I’m the R. That can only cause trouble for me.
I agree with you as to there being certain duties that are the responsibility of the R. I pregame about informing me first if there needs to be a change to the book or score when I'm the R. And when I'm not the R, I go to my crew chief first with such information.

However, it is a faulty assumption to state the R is usually the most knowledgeable member of the crew. I might give you most experienced as the "usual", but definitely not usually the most knowledgeable.
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Last edited by Raymond; Tue Nov 24, 2020 at 09:09am.
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 24, 2020, 09:30am
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Around here, the R is whoever wants it, whoever we can stick in the middle walking out on the court or the new guy.
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 24, 2020, 09:59am
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King Of Interpretations ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
If there is an AP throw-in by Team A from the front court sideline with 8.4 seconds remaining in the game and the first touch of the passed ball occurs when B1 bats the ball out of the imaginary cylinder above the basket, would the AP-arrow switch? The answer is yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
NFHS Interps 2007-08
SITUATION 3: During an alternating-possession throw-in for Team A, thrower A1 passes the ball directly on the court where it contacts (a) A2 or (b) B2, while he/she is standing on a boundary line. RULING: Out-of-bounds violation on (a) A2; (b) B2. The player was touched by the ball while out of bounds, thereby ending the throw-in. The alternating-possession arrow is reversed and pointed toward Team B's basket when the throw-in ends (when A2/B2 is touched by the ball). A throw-in is awarded at a spot nearest the out-of-bounds violation for (a) Team B; (b) Team A. (4-42-5; 6-4-4; 9-2-2; 9-3-2)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
4.42.5 SITUATION: Team A is awarded an alternating- possession throw-in. A1’s throw-in pass is illegally kicked by B2. RULING: As a result of B2’s kicking violation, Team A is awarded a new throw-in at the designated spot nearest to where the kicking violation (illegal touching) occurred. Since the alternating-possession throw-in had not been contacted legally, the throw-in has not ended and therefore, the arrow remains with Team A for the next alternating-possession throw-in. COMMENT: The kicking violation ends the alternating-possession throw-in and as a result, a non- alternating-possession throw-in is administered. When the ball is legally touched on the subsequent throw-in following the kicking violation, the arrow shall not be changed and shall remain with Team A. (6-4-5)
Nice situations Nevadaref.

Switching (or not switching) arrows; and starting (or not starting) clocks is a lot more interesting and complex than I thought.

While I'll stubbornly stick to not starting clocks on any and all illegal touches, I'm now more confused than ever on switching, or not switching, arrows.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Nov 24, 2020 at 10:06am.
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  #80 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 24, 2020, 10:04am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
The HS philosophy is that game action should be timed, unless a rule specifically states otherwise.
Certainly not the philosophy in the HS games I work, but if you say so...
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  #81 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 24, 2020, 10:21am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
There are certain duties that the R and not the U(s) should be doing. They are clearly listed in the rules. Having an R who actually adheres to the rules and does his duties doesnt make him a jerk. One can handle things by the book in a nice way.

Generally the R is the most experienced or knowledgeable member of a crew and has been designated the R to display that through quality judgment in necessary situations. To have someone else step in and make those decisions probably isnt best for the game or the postgame reports/complaints that may arise.

So I dont see the problem with letting the designated person, the Referee, handle these matters. I do that when Im am umpire. I will give the R info and he can apply it as he desires. When Im the R, I listen to input from the U(s) and make the best decision that I can.

Personally, I wouldnt want an Umpire correcting fouls or some other disputed item in the scorebook when Im the R. That can only cause trouble for me.
"If you notice a clock error, get it fixed. I don't need you to come to me first."

That is the line used by almost every R in almost every pregame I've ever been in. Correcting the clock is not a "quality judgment."

In the case of the maverick official I referred to earlier, the only thing he was good at was taking the tests and memorizing the books. In South Carolina, that was good enough to be an R on some of the best games in the state. Once we got on the court he had no idea how to apply the intent of the rules, no play-calling skills, no concept of game management, and no ability to communicate with coaches and players. Guess which kind of official 99% of us would rather work with?
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 24, 2020, 10:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
NFHS Interps 2007-08
SITUATION 3: During an alternating-possession throw-in for Team A, thrower A1 passes the ball directly on the court where it contacts (a) A2 or (b) B2, while he/she is standing on a boundary line. RULING: Out-of-bounds violation on (a) A2; (b) B2. The player was touched by the ball while out of bounds, thereby ending the throw-in. The alternating-possession arrow is reversed and pointed toward Team B's basket when the throw-in ends (when A2/B2 is touched by the ball). A throw-in is awarded at a spot nearest the out-of-bounds violation for (a) Team B; (b) Team A. (4-42-5; 6-4-4; 9-2-2; 9-3-2)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Compare that play ruling to this one.

4.42.5 SITUATION: Team A is awarded an alternating- possession throw-in. A1s throw-in pass is illegally kicked by B2. RULING: As a result of B2s kicking violation, Team A is awarded a new throw-in at the designated spot nearest to where the kicking violation (illegal touching) occurred. Since the alternating-possession throw-in had not been contacted legally, the throw-in has not ended and therefore, the arrow remains with Team A for the next alternating-possession throw-in. COMMENT: The kicking violation ends the alternating-possession throw-in and as a result, a non- alternating-possession throw-in is administered. When the ball is legally touched on the subsequent throw-in following the kicking violation, the arrow shall not be changed and shall remain with Team A. (6-4-5)
Neither of these case plays proves the point you are so sure you're right about.
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 24, 2020, 10:24am
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All Hail To Massachusetts ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ODog View Post
Run off the court ... even in Massachusetts!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Funny.

ODog: Care to explain for the newer Forum members who are not from Massachusetts who may fail to see any humor in this?
I guess that ODog crawled back into his secret underground COVID bomb shelter.

Massachusetts officials have to observe the post-game handshake lines before leaving the visual confines of the court. I also believe that they lack the power to issue technical fouls during this time period.
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 24, 2020, 10:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I believe somebody posted up thread something about citations and lawyering

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
I'm convinced this is one of those situations where he feels high school needs to be different from college just for the sake of being different, even though he has provided zero evidence that the rule or philosophy differs between the two levels.
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 24, 2020, 10:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Neither of these case plays proves the point you are so sure you're right about.
Are you referring to the clock or the illegal touch definition?
Both of those are to demonstrate what the Fed considers illegal touching.
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 24, 2020, 12:49pm
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Defensive Team Commits A Violation During The Throw-In ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
If there is an AP throw-in by Team A from the front court sideline with 8.4 seconds remaining in the game and the first touch of the passed ball occurs when B1 bats the ball out of the imaginary cylinder above the basket, would the AP-arrow switch? The answer is yes.
Yes?

6-4: ART. 4 The direction of the possession arrow is reversed immediately after an alternating-possession throw-in ends. An alternating-possession throw-in ends when the throw-in ends as in 4-42-5.
ART. 5 The opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in is lost if the throw-in team violates. If either team fouls during an alternating possession throw-in, it does not cause the throw-in team to lose the possession arrow. If the defensive team commits a violation during the throw-in, the possession arrow is not switched.

4-42-5: The throw-in ends when:
a. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player inbounds.
b. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player out-of-bounds, except as in 7-5-7.
c. The throw-in team commits a throw-in violation.


A defensive violation switches the arrow here:

NFHS Interps 2007-08 SITUATION 3: During an alternating-possession throw-in for Team A, thrower A1 passes the ball directly on the court where it contacts (a) A2 or (b) B2, while he/she is standing on a boundary line. RULING: Out-of-bounds violation on (a) A2; (b) B2. The player was touched by the ball while out of bounds, thereby ending the throw-in. The alternating-possession arrow is reversed and pointed toward Team B's basket when the throw-in ends (when A2/B2 is touched by the ball). A throw-in is awarded at a spot nearest the out-of-bounds violation for (a) Team B; (b) Team A. (4-42-5; 6-4-4; 9-2-2; 9-3-2)

A defensive violation doesn't switch the arrow here:

4.42.5 SITUATION: Team A is awarded an alternating- possession throw-in. A1’s throw-in pass is illegally kicked by B2. RULING: As a result of B2’s kicking violation, Team A is awarded a new throw-in at the designated spot nearest to where the kicking violation (illegal touching) occurred. Since the alternating-possession throw-in had not been contacted legally, the throw-in has not ended and therefore, the arrow remains with Team A for the next alternating-possession throw-in. COMMENT: The kicking violation ends the alternating-possession throw-in and as a result, a non- alternating-possession throw-in is administered. When the ball is legally touched on the subsequent throw-in following the kicking violation, the arrow shall not be changed and shall remain with Team A. (6-4-5)

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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Nov 24, 2020 at 01:18pm.
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 24, 2020, 01:16pm
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Change The Arrow, Or Not ...

6.4.5 SITUATION A: Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in under the alternating procedure. A1 commits a violation. RULING: Bs ball for a throw-in because of the violation. In addition, the possession arrow is reversed and is pointed towards Bs basket. Team B will have the next throw-in opportunity under the alternating procedure. Team A has lost its opportunity by virtue of the violation. A violation by Team A during an alternating-possession throw-in is the only way a team loses its turn under the procedure. COMMENT: If a foul by either team occurs before an alternating-possession throw-in ends, the foul is penalized as required and play continues as it normally would, but the possession arrow is not reversed. The same team will still have the arrow for the next alternating-possession throw-in. The arrow is reversed when an alternating-possession throw-in ends. (6-4-4)

6.4.5 SITUATION B: During an alternating-possession throw-in, thrower A1 holds the ball through the end-line plane and B1 grabs it, resulting in a held ball. RULING: Since the throw-in had not ended and no violation occurred, it is still As ball for an alternating-possession throw-in. (4-42-5)

4.42.5 SITUATION: Team A is awarded an alternating-possession throw-in. A1s throw-in pass is illegally kicked by B2. RULING: As a result of B2s kicking violation, Team A is awarded a new throw-in at the designated spot nearest to where the kicking violation (illegal touching) occurred. Since the alternating-possession throw-in had not been contacted legally, the throw-in has not ended and therefore, the arrow remains with Team A for the next alternating-possession throw-in. COMMENT: The kicking violation ends the alternating-possession throw-in and as a result, a non-alternating-possession throw-in is administered. When the ball is legally touched on the subsequent throw-in following the kicking violation, the arrow shall not be changed and shall remain with Team A. (6-4-5)

9.2.8 SITUATION: Team A is awarded an alternating-possession throw-in. A1 lobs the throw-in pass toward A2 who is breaking to the basket. The throw-in pass is too high and lodges between the ring and backboard. RULING: Violation by A1 for lodging the untouched throw-in pass. Team Bs ball at the throw-in spot. Since A1 violated during an alternating-possession throw-in, Team A has lost the arrow. Team B will have the arrow for the next alternating-possession throw-in. (6-4-5)

2007-08 SITUATION 3: During an alternating-possession throw-in for Team A, thrower A1 passes the ball directly on the court where it contacts (a) A2 or (b) B2, while he/she is standing on a boundary line. RULING: Out-of-bounds violation on (a) A2; (b) B2. The player was touched by the ball while out of bounds, thereby ending the throw-in. The alternating-possession arrow is reversed and pointed toward Team B's basket when the throw-in ends (when A2/B2 is touched by the ball). A throw-in is awarded at a spot nearest the out-of-bounds violation for (a) Team B; (b) Team A. (4-42-5; 6-4-4; 9-2-2; 9-3-2)

2009-10 SITUATION 3: During an alternating-possession throw-in by Team A, B1 breaks the plane of the boundary line. The official stops play. RULING: Team B is issued a warning for breaking the throw-in plane. Since the original alternating-possession throw-in had not ended, the ball is again awarded to Team A and remains an alternating-possession throw-in. Any type of further delay by Team B results in a team technical foul. (4-42-5; 4-47-1; 6-4-4; 7-6-4; 10-1-5c)

2016-17 SITUATION 11: Team A is awarded an alternating-possession throw-in. After A1 releases the ball, B1 commits a kicking violation. RULING: A1s throw-in has ended because of B1s kicking violation. A new throw-in is awarded to Team A at the spot out-of-bounds nearest to where the kicking violation occurred. NOTE: Because the defensive team committed a violation during the alternating-possession throwin, the alternating-possession arrow is not switched.

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  #88 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 13, 2020, 10:07pm
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Part 2

Most of these questions are asked on previous exams, every other year. Keep a bank of them on a spreadsheet.
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