Ts and More Ts

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SC Official

The seatbelt rule is the NFHS's worst rule and it's not even close ...

Team control/throwin/team control fouls/backcourt/backcourt exceptions?

Player delays the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play technical foul/team delays the game by acts such as: preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play technical foul/warnings?

Contact above the shoulders Point of Emphasis/intentional foul/flagrant foul/personal foul/violation?

At least one of these has to be close?

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I understand your pain, it does seem odd to "split hairs" and differentiate between intermissions (bench personnel) and timeouts (players), but the seatbelt rule is a great tool to have in our black tool belt to keep those sitting, or not sitting, on the bench, or in the bench area, including adult assistants, and student athlete team members not in the game, under control.

Since head coaches were first allowed to stand to coach back in ancient times (back when it was, as far as I'm concerned, a real seatbelt rule), even before the new written warning rule, one word by me to the head coach about some problems with his bench and the possibility that he could be standing, brought an instant and immediate end to any shenanigans on the bench, or in the bench area, even if I couldn't specifically identify the individual culprits on the bench. Few coaches want to sit and coach.

No seatbelt rule in the college game and the coaches behave better on average. This is for many reasons but one of them, in my opinion, is that officials are less hesitant to whack because they don't have to have the "coach, you've lost the box" conversation which everyone knows just throws fuel on the fire.

The seatbelt rule just gives high school officials something else we have to police that has nothing to do with the game. It's a well-intentioned rule that does anything but make the game better.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Team control/throwin/backcourt/backcourt exceptions?

Player delays the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play technical foul/team delays the game by acts such as: preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play technical foul/warnings?

Contact above the shoulders Point of Emphasis/intentional foul/flagrant foul/personal foul/violation?

At least one of these has to be close?

I said "worst rule," not "worst written rule." There's nothing wrong with those rules you mentioned other than the NFHS's sloppy editing.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SC Official

... "coach, you've lost the box" conversation which everyone knows just throws fuel on the fire ...

Agree, which is why this is always a key part of my pregame: If one of us calls a technical foul on a coach, the noncalling official will remind the coach that he must sit down.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree, which is why this is always a key part of my pregame: If one of us calls a technical foul on a coach, the noncalling official will remind the coach that he must sit down.

Coaches are going to react negatively no matter which official gives him the reminder.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree, which is why this is always a key part of my pregame: If one of us calls a technical foul on a coach, the noncalling official will remind the coach that he must sit down.

Originally Posted by SC Official

Coaches are going to react negatively no matter which official gives him the reminder.

Just trying some game management to possibly avoid a rapid fire double bang.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SC Official

There's nothing wrong with those rules you mentioned other than the NFHS's sloppy editing.

Good point. Agree. Instead of being changed, all three can be fixed.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SC Official

... (high school) officials are less hesitant to whack because they don't have to have the "coach, you've lost the box" conversation which everyone knows just throws fuel on the fire ...

I can't deny that this exists, but in my opinion it's way way down the list of reasons why some high school officials are reluctant to "whack".

One main reason here in my little corner of Connecticut is that coaches "vote in" state tournament officials, so officials don't want to offend coaches, often ignoring the fact that the other coach, who also votes, is saying to himself, "Hey these officials are letting him get away with murder while I'm acting in a sporting manner".

Another main reason is that we've got some guys who see technical fouls as a sign of weakness, taking pride their ability to get through their games using game management skills other than technical fouls, some who brag about such skills, "I haven't given a coach a technical foul in years".

And we have some young, inexperienced guys who are just downright intimidated by some powerful, aggressive, challenging coaches, and such officials will avoid (short of flagrant action) "whacking" just to avoid the technical foul confrontation, falsely hoping that ignoring the situation will make it go away.

And we've got a few guys who just don't want to do the paperwork. Technical fouls have to be reported, in writing, to our assignment commissioner. Technical fouls accompanied by ejections have to be reported, in writing, to our assignment commissioner and to the state interscholastic sports governing body.

I will admit that I think about the "seatbelt" rule, but only after I charge the technical foul and administer the penalties. I never immediately tell the coach he has to sit (fuel and fire), I wait to see if he remembers and adheres to the rule. After going up and down the court a few times after the technical foul penalties I might say to myself, "Damn, he's still standing", and try to get my partner to remind the coach without stopping the game, barring that, I will mention it to the coach as I run past. Or perhaps my partner, or I, will mention it to the coach during the next clock stopped dead ball period.

I still think that the seatbelt is a good tool with the benefits slightly outweighing the risks, risks that I admit do exist. High school coaches (I know, I coached middle school basketball for twenty-five years) don't want to coach while sitting, and will do everything in their power to keep their bench personnel on the straight and narrow to avoid being "seatbelted". Coaching while sitting is awkward, and "out of the zone", for many coaches.

[JRutledge]

I do not think coaches having or not having a box makes much difference. There are coaches at the college level that are never T'd and they have no seatbelt rule. That might be up to each official as to if they want to deal with the fallout. Most of the time it is a supervisor that is making it harder for officials to even think about giving a T. I have had assignor that did not want us to give a T to the coaches and it caused more issues than giving Ts. I know a college assignor that told officials in his staff meeting, "Use your people skills" which meant that if you gave a T, you would be penalized when the coach complained. There were D1 officials on that staff that was perplexed about how to deal with certain coaches. That supervisor has since been released and it was different this year. I think Ts are hard enough without all the hullabaloo about them. Most Ts I give to a coach, the last thing is whether they can sit. I am sure it is a factor for some more than others, but I do not think that is the "reason" officials give or do not give them. I know coaches that get them that sit their little behinds right down because they knew it was coming. Not all of them we give is a shock or even unexpected by the coach.

Peace

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not think coaches having or not having a box makes much difference. There are coaches at the college level that are never T'd and they have no seatbelt rule. That might be up to each official as to if they want to deal with the fallout. Most of the time it is a supervisor that is making it harder for officials to even think about giving a T. I have had assignor that did not want us to give a T to the coaches and it caused more issues than giving Ts. I know a college assignor that told officials in his staff meeting, "Use your people skills" which meant that if you gave a T, you would be penalized when the coach complained. There were D1 officials on that staff that was perplexed about how to deal with certain coaches. That supervisor has since been released and it was different this year. I think Ts are hard enough without all the hullabaloo about them. Most Ts I give to a coach, the last thing is whether they can sit. I am sure it is a factor for some more than others, but I do not think that is the "reason" officials give or do not give them. I know coaches that get them that sit their little behinds right down because they knew it was coming. Not all of them we give is a shock or even unexpected by the coach.

Peace

For the record I agree with you, there are multiple factors that go into officials at both the high school and college levels not penalizing unsporting behavior. But from my experience I have worked with many officials in high school games who are hesitant to give T's because they don't want to be the seatbelt police the rest of the game. I don't either but I'm not willing to let coaches act like buffoons as an alternative. Of course, I think a lot of high school officials just refuse to give T's regardless.

Not having the seatbelt rule works just fine in the college game. 9 out of 10 times the coach who gets whacked is back to coaching the next possession and isn't a problem for the rest of the game. I do think high school coaches as a whole are more immature but the reality is that they are very well aware of the consequences should they receive a second T.

Of course there will be the morals police who say "Oh, but this is high school, it's an extension of the classroom." That's lovely but does not mean we should have to babysit the coach the rest of the game to make sure he stays seated. That makes our job unnecessarily more difficult.

[BillyMac]

Misty watercolor memories ...

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I never immediately tell the coach he has to sit (fuel and fire), I wait to see if he remembers and adheres to the rule. After going up and down the court a few times after the technical foul penalties I might say to myself, "Damn, he's still standing", and try to get my partner to remind the coach without stopping the game, barring that, I will mention it to the coach as I run past. Or perhaps my partner, or I, will mention it to the coach during the next clock stopped dead ball period.

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1016242

Occurred in this game:

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1017795