the swim move vs good offense

[oc]

The following quote is from the POE for this year. (HS rules).

'3. "Hooking" by the offensive players should be presumed a definite advantage. This is not a judgment call or tactic worthy of a warning. It is a foul and should be called without hesitation. '

Other parts of the rule book talks about the 'swim move' by the offense being illegal. What do you look for to determine it as illegal or just good offense? I was playing a game the other day and felt the guy I was defending was using his arm illegally to keep me away from the incoming pass on the post. His reply was that I get pretty physical myself when I am on offense-which is true and one of my favorite moves is a spin move that gets me around the defender and I shield them out with my body.--But I think my move is legal because I keep my arms in my 'cylinder' directly above my feet while keeping the D off while using by body or an arm bar(elbow-arm not extended, elbow not displacing the D but keeping them out of my space).

Back to my original question. What exactly is the swim move, what is hooking (In bball terms), and what is legal when using an arm bar? What do you look for before calling a foul on the offense?

[Bart Tyson]

The swim move can be by the O or D. Lets start with the Def. player behind the Off. player. The Off. player has good position with his elbows out with arms bent forward as if to receive a pass. Lets say the def. wants to get in front of the Off. player by going around on the left side. The def. player takes his right arm and goes over the top of the left arm of the off. player and brings the off. player's arm down so as to make it easier to get in front of the off. player. This is the swim move.

[Bart Tyson]

I believe the arm bar is only legal in Women's. And only under certain conditions. "What is an off. foul?" You might want to be a little more specific.

[rainmaker]

The arm bar is always illegal in high school, Bart. I don't know about NCAA women's. Sometimes I let it go if it's just sort of a body-protection thing, but if there's any advantage gained, such as when the dribbler has the ball off on the left hand side, and has the right arm up in a bar holding off the defender, I call it.

The swim move is just a re-description of something that's illegal in the larger picture, which is using the arms out to the sides to gain position. Arms out to the side is never legal, if there's contact. Bart's description of the defense "swimming" to the front of the post player is a good picture, but don't forget that the offense can equally "start it". The trick is to catch it the first time on the first "stroke". If you let it get to a real swimming motion, where both players are wheeling their arms around each other, it's too late.

Also remember that for a person to have arms out to the sides is illegal, but not until there's contact. If the post player is holding arms out to the sides, and the defender comes up behind, the defender can "draw" a foul by running into the arms, and the ref should call it. But if the defender puts her hand up and moves the offense's arm, that's holding by the defense.

By extension, whoever displaces the other first, should get the call immediately.

[TriggerMN]

The arm bar is legal in NCAA women's. One arm only; two arms is a foul. Also with the arm bar, the defensive player can place a foot in between the offensive player's feet. If the heel is raised, it's a foul.

[oc]

Originally posted by rainmaker
The arm bar is always illegal in high school, Bart. I don't know about NCAA women's. Sometimes I let it go if it's just sort of a body-protection thing, but if there's any advantage gained, such as when the dribbler has the ball off on the left hand side, and has the right arm up in a bar holding off the defender, I call it.

Thanks. I wasn't refferring to a dribbler but a post player. Example-A1 takes position under the hoop and holds up arm elbow bent to protect position/keep D away. B1 tries to stop incoming pass but is prevented by A1's elbow in B1's side. A1 does not extend arm, or push/displace, just matches the force being pushed by B1 to protect position. Legal in HS? How about FIBA?

I ref HS using Fed rules but the league I play in uses FIBA rules-and I was taught the arm bar by a Canadian teammate.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by oc
Thanks. I wasn't refferring to a dribbler but a post player. Example-A1 takes position under the hoop and holds up arm elbow bent to protect position/keep D away. B1 tries to stop incoming pass but is prevented by A1's elbow in B1's side. A1 does not extend arm, or push/displace, just matches the force being pushed by B1 to protect position. Legal in HS?

It's technically illegal in Fed, but a lot of refs don't call it as long as there's no movement at all. If the upper arm (shoot, cant remember the name of the bone!) is parallel to the floor, so that the lower arm (radius and ulna) are clear out away from the body, I think it should be called. But a lot of folks won't unless the arm moves.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker
[/B]

If the upper arm (shoot, cant remember the name of the bone!)
[/B][/QUOTE]Gee, I find that humerus!

[mick]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

If the upper arm (shoot, cant remember the name of the bone!)
[/B]

Gee, I find that humerus! [/B][/QUOTE]

...Not too bad, JR.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by mick

Gee, I find that humerus! [/B]

...Not too bad, JR. [/B][/QUOTE]

No, we don't work together often, but keep in mind that, when we do, I'm the straight one!

[mick]

Originally posted by rainmaker

...Not too bad, JR. [/B]

No, we don't work together often, but keep in mind that, when we do, I'm the straight one! [/B][/QUOTE]


Oh, my!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker
[/B]

No, we don't work together often, but keep in mind that, when we do, I'm the straight one!
[/B][/QUOTE]And I'm the crooked one? Or the curvy one?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

No, we don't work together often, but keep in mind that, when we do, I'm the straight one!
[/B]

And I'm the crooked one? Or the curvy one? [/B][/QUOTE]

You choose!

[oatmealqueen]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

No, we don't work together often, but keep in mind that, when we do, I'm the straight one!
[/B]

And I'm the crooked one? Or the curvy one? [/B][/QUOTE]


Sorry JR
But I'm not convinced that the opposite of "straight" is "crooked or curvy".

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by oatmealqueen

And I'm the crooked one? Or the curvy one? [/B]

Sorry JR
But I'm not convinced that the opposite of "straight" is "crooked or curvy".
[/B][/QUOTE]Gasp! Do you mean that maybe I'm on illicit, mind altering, brain-cell destroying, illegal substances?

Come to think of it, that does explain a few things!

The colors, the colors.....