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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 02, 2020, 02:33pm
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With Liberty And Justice For All ...

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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
During World War II, my Dad, my hero, an Army Staff Sergeant, fought his way from North Africa, across Sicily, and up the Apennine Mountains in Italy, over some of Europe's most difficult terrain under some of the worst weather conditions found anywhere during World War II. He was eventually awarded a medal for his heroism in the Battle of Rome (after which he traded his carbine for a typewriter after the Army discovered that he went to business school and could type).

As kids, every national holiday (they weren't always on Mondays back then) my Dad proudly displayed our family's (all three of his bothers served) American Flag, and he made a point of telling my brother and me why he was displaying the flag on that particular special day. He's no longer with us, so I can't be certain, but I'm pretty sure that he didn't risk his life and didn't fight his way across Italy for a piece of red, white, and blue colored cloth, or a poem matched with music from a British song, both that symbolized liberty, freedom, and justice; but rather, for the actual liberty, actual freedom, and actual justice (not just symbols) that we have in this wonderful country.

"With liberty and justice for all". Remember when we all recited that at the beginning of school every day? Did we mean it?
https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1009489
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Aug 02, 2020 at 03:26pm.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 02, 2020, 02:35pm
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National Anthem ...

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1009443
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 02, 2020, 02:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rookie View Post
Let's go to the next issue..Kneeling during the National Anthem. NBA referees knelt the other night. On the High School and College level, what if members of the crew are split on this..some kneeling and others not?
The NBA as a league and organization (smaller group of people) are on board with these things. I guess a college or high school official can do what they want, but that does not mean something will not do something to them as a result. I guess it really comes down to the supervisor, but it also comes down to the leagues and their policies. There were not many officials doing this before, so I doubt they will do it now. That being said leagues and supervisors might want to be careful with trying to punish officials as you are opening yourself up for some kind of litigation if you make it an issue.

This was asked a few years ago at a college meeting with combined staffs and one of the supervisors (who is no longer assigning that league anymore) told everyone this is freedom of speech. Now I never heard of anyone doing this, but at least he did not say he would react negatively, but something tells me that would not be the response if such a thing took place. This will be handled for certain on a case by case situation.

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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 03, 2020, 10:43am
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What I Learned From A South Park Episode ...

I had a discussion today with an official buddy about a scenario where, with a racially diverse crew, a part of the crew decides to kneel and the other part decides not to, and how to handle that.

He imagines a game where the one entire team, players and coaches, kneel; and the other entire team, players and coaches, stand, with his racially diverse crew in the middle with at least one of the officials wanting to kneel.

Sports and politics have become very much intermingled, whether we like it, or not, which is why I decided to give my personal political take on this, of course moderators are free to delete, hopefully with no further penalty. These are my personal opinions. I promise to respect differing opinions from others. I'm not trying to start a political debate, I'm trying to prepare all of us for something that we may have to deal with this upcoming season.

While I support many Black Lives Matters issues, it’s a loosely organized umbrella organization with many leaders with many different issues. For example, while I’m all for non-armed experts dealing with the mentally ill and the homeless, I’m not 100% in for “defund the police”. While I’m all for decreasing school arrests in the name of discipline and slowing down the “school to prison”" pipeline”, I’m also a big supporter of school resource officers, they may be the only positive police presence in a school kid’s life. Demilitarize the police? While the “cop on the beat” (if there still is such a thing) doesn't need to be armed like a soldier, SWAT teams and such do for protection. Better training for police? 100% yes. Better supervision and oversight for the police? 100% yes. Better minority (and female) recruiting for police? 100% yes. Reparations for slavery? Not sure, but we still need some sort of “affirmative action” because we still don’t have economic equality in this country. Non-violent protests (maybe with some minor non-violent civil disobedience)? Yes. Violent (with destruction of property, including controversial statues) protests? 100% absolutely no. Legislative (legal) removal or relocation of controversial statues? Possibly, but only after much reflective discussion.

As a white male, in regard to race issues, I try to remember the moral of the South Park episode (With Apologies to Jesse Jackson) where Stan, even though trying to be very empathetic, finally understands why he doesn't get it. He tells Token that he will never understand how it feels to have the N-word used against him because he isn't black, which was what Token was looking to hear all along and they reconcile.

That being said, I’m supportive of kneeling protests, to me the flag, among other things, can be considered just a piece of colored cloth; and the anthem is a British song with a racist second verse. There are may ways of showing patriotism. One person’s patriotism can be demonstrated by respectfully standing during the anthem (as I've done my entire life up until this point), another's might be by wearing a pandemic mask (as stated by President Trump), and another's might be by joining the military. And, of course, a cloth flag is less important than our First Amendment rights (and other rights) that the flag represents.

To further complicate things, as a religious person I consider kneeling as a sign of reverence.

If I was sure that my kneeling wouldn't appear non-professional, and would not screw-up the teamwork chemistry between myself and my partner, and would not appear to be less than neutral to the players and fans, I would kneel. But that’s a lot of “ifs”.

My advice to my buddy:

Be proactive. Get advice from your local or state groups before the season starts.

Be proactive. Discuss it pregame in the locker room. Try to get on the same page. If not all do the same, discuss how the other(s) will handle it. Hold hands? Arms on shoulders? Maybe stay in the locker room?
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Aug 03, 2020 at 02:57pm.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 03, 2020, 03:15pm
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Proactive ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I'm trying to prepare all of us for something that we may have to deal with this upcoming season.
I just discussed my post with my son. If Forum members haven't seen many kneeling protests over the past few seasons, especially kneeling protests involving officials, get ready for a lot more this upcoming season due to the invigorated Black Lives Matter movement and its support by professional sports leagues (NBA, WNBA, MLB, NHL, MLS, NWSL, NASCAR, NFL), including game officials.

Don't be surprised by it. Get ready. How will you personally handle it? Will it be part of your pregame, or discussed with game site administrators? How will your state handle it? How will your local organization handle it?

Officials can be brave and patriotic by standing, or can be brave and patriotic by kneeling. Just know that people will be watching, and that it may effect your game that night (coaches, players, fans), and your relationships with colleagues (partners).

Outside of guidelines from my local board, my default will probably be to stand, but I may really want to kneel. A lot will depend on my partners. I'm really not very brave.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Aug 03, 2020 at 03:41pm.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 03, 2020, 03:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
….

Don't be surprised by it. Get ready. How will you personally handle it? ...
How will I personally handle what?
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 03, 2020, 03:30pm
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Just so we are clear, there have been plenty of displays during the National Anthem. I will do the same thing I did when it happened in 2017. Nothing, absolutely nothing. It has nothing to do with the game itself. And the state already took a position on this, they are not governing what goes on with a school in that way. This happened several times during the football season with a fist, with someone kneeling and almost every game I see people not stand. There is nothing to do, this is not my business.

And I do not work for associations that tell officials how to officiate.

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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 03, 2020, 03:40pm
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Stand Out In A Crowd ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
How will I personally handle what?
Having partners that want to do something different than you. Doing something that only one team is doing while the other is doing the opposite. Doing something that stands out as being very different than most of the fans at that game, that night, at that site.

As an official I never want to do anything that makes me stand out, especially for something that has very little to do with how the game is officiated. I don't want to start the game already on the "bad side" of the players, the crowd, or my partner, for standing, or not standing, but I would also like to have strength in my convictions. I'm guess that I'm really not very brave.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 03, 2020, 03:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Having partners that want to do something different than you. Doing something that only one team is doing while the other is doing the opposite. Doing something that stands out as being very different than most of the fans at that game, that night, at that site.



As an official I never want to do anything that makes me stand out, especially for something that has very little to do with how the game is officiated. I don't want to start the game already on the "bad side" of the players, the crowd, or my partner, for standing, or not standing, but I would also like to have strength in my convictions. I'm guess that I'm really not very brave.
I personally don't care what any partner does; and I definitely don't care what the fans players or coaches do.

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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 03, 2020, 03:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Having partners that want to do something different than you. Doing something that only one team is doing while the other is doing the opposite. Doing something that stands out as being very different than most of the fans at that game, that night, at that site.

As an official I never want to do anything that makes me stand out, especially for something that has very little to do with how the game is officiated. I don't want to start the game already on the "bad side" of the players, the crowd, or my partner, for standing, or not standing, but I would also like to have strength in my convictions. I'm guess that I'm really not very brave.
I have never had a serious talk with an official wanting to kneel during a game. Never. Do not see that really happening now honestly. Not sure what changed since 2017? I know some NBA officials kneeled, but that is the NBA. The league controls that and everyone in the game is basically on the same page.

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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 03, 2020, 03:55pm
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Ready ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I personally don't care what any partner does; and I definitely don't care what the fans players or coaches do.
Then your definitely ready, and apparently have always been ready, for this upcoming season of possible protests, or no protests, by officials.

I'm supportive of many of the issues of the Black Lives Matter movement, but as an official I don't want to appear to be non-professional, would not want to screw-up the teamwork chemistry between myself and my partner, and would not want to appear to be less than neutral to the players and fans. Plus, I'm apparently not very brave, and don't appear to have strength to my convictions. I can talk the talk but I can't walk the walk.

At a game, I get paid to officiate, not to wear my political issues on my sleeve. Also I would never fault a partner for kneeling, I just hope that he gives me a heads up.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Aug 03, 2020 at 04:49pm.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 03, 2020, 04:01pm
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2020 ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Not sure what changed since 2017?
2020: Black Lives Matter has become invigorated and competes with COVID as the "big story" every day.

2020: Many major sports leagues (and many more players) are now actively supporting BLM.

2020: Some officials have joined the protests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
The league controls that and everyone in the game is basically on the same page.
Would like to see guidelines from my local board. Maybe not mandates, but "Please do this ...", "We encourage you to do this ...", "We advise you to do this ...", etc.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Aug 03, 2020 at 04:09pm.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 03, 2020, 04:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
2020: Black Lives Matter has become invigorated and competes with COVID as the "big story" every day.

2020: Many major sports leagues (and many more players) are now actively supporting BLM.

2020: Some officials have joined the protests.



Would like to see guidelines from my local board. Maybe not mandates, but "Please do this ...", "We encourage you to do this ...", "We advise you to do this ...", etc.
The last time I had a supervisor bring it up at all was my D1 supervisor who said he didn't want us kneeling because of safety concerns. That was either last preseason or two years ago.

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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 03, 2020, 04:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
2020: Black Lives Matter has become invigorated and competes with COVID as the "big story" every day.

2020: Many major sports leagues (and many more players) are now actively supporting BLM.

2020: Some officials have joined the protests.
You do realize that there were officials kneeling in 2017 right? There were college football players putting their fist in the air. There were players in other sports doing other displays. Not the masses, but many were doing something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Would like to see guidelines from my local board. Maybe not mandates, but "Please do this ...".
I do not need to see guidelines from a place I will not be. I am just saying that many of us have been paying attention for some time and even before Kaep kneeled. I have seen people sit for the NA for years. Often people of color that feel a certain way about the Anthem.

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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 03, 2020, 04:22pm
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Correction ...

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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
You do realize that there were officials kneeling in 2017 right?
No I did not, at least not any televised sports (especially not NCAA, NBA, WNBA basketball), or any high school basketball around here.

Now I know. Thanks for the correction.

While Connecticut certainly has its share of white suburban and rural communities, we also have many black urban schools and I've never noticed black fans sitting for the anthem, although I've seen young black men (and young white men) have to be reminded to remove their hats.

I bet that that will change this upcoming season, and it may not be just black fans.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Aug 27, 2020 at 12:01pm.
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