Team control throwin. Foul purposes only

[SC Official]

Lol here we go again...

https://www.templebasketballofficial...%202017-18.pdf

See page 209

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Lol here we go again...

https://www.templebasketballofficial...%202017-18.pdf

See page 209

Thx for the cite. Not going through it again. Have to speak to some folks over weekend and need to show them this... It should be in book but it isn’t.. as you know. I’ve been explaining TC throwin v inbounds TC for years. Just lost track of the Poe.. thx again..

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Thx for the cite. Not going through it again. Have to speak to some folks over weekend and need to show them this... It should be in book but it isn’t.. as you know. I’ve been explaining TC throwin v inbounds TC for years. Just lost track of the Poe.. thx again..

Um...actually it is in the book. You clearly didn't look hard enough. I gave you the page number to the exact same thing Billy posted.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Um...actually it is in the book. You clearly didn't look hard enough. I gave you the page number to the exact same thing Billy posted.

I think you know what he meant...that it is not permanently placed in the rule itself. If you don't happen to have that year's book with the POE or one of the other few historical publications, there would be no way to know.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If you don't happen to have that year's book with the POE or one of the other few historical publications, there would be no way to know.

Just like the 2012-13 Contact Above The Shoulders Points Of Emphasis.

Stupid NFHS.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Just like the 2012-13 Contact Above The Shoulders Points Of Emphasis.

Stupid NFHS.

I have said this before, people here love to tell us what is the standard of an interpretation but you cannot find them anywhere in the current material. That is a problem and always has been a problem. And digging up old interpretations does not help IMO unless they are listed in a centralized location that everyone has access to. This page is not that location.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... you cannot find them anywhere in the current material. That is a problem and always has been a problem ... unless they are listed in a centralized location that everyone has access to ...

Agree. How is any official who started officiating after 2012-2013 (that was eight years ago) supposed to know how to correctly interpret contact above the shoulders?

Are we supposed to depend on the oral tradition of old, grizzled, veteran officials telling stories to young'uns around blazing campfires?

This is the twenty-first century, not the Pleistocene Epoch.



That's Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. in the lower right of the cave painting, eating his medium-rare Woolly Mammoth. He's getting ready to tell his "Change of Status" story.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If you don't happen to have that year's book with the POE or one of the other few historical publications, there would be no way to know.

This did make it's way into the casebook:

4.12.2 SITUATION B: During a throw-in by A-1 from the end line by Team A’s basket: (a) A2 is in the restricted lane area for four seconds of the throw-in count; or (b) the throw-in is touched by A2 before it goes across the division line where it is recovered by A3. RULING: Legal in (a) and (b), even though Team A is in team control during the throw-in. There is no three-second count in (a) since team control had not yet been established in Team A’s frontcourt. There is no backcourt violation in (b) since team control had not yet been established in team A’s frontcourt before the ball went into Team A’s backcourt. The throw-in ends when A2 legally touches the ball, but the backcourt count does not start until A3 gains control in his/her backcourt. (9-7, 8, 9)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4.12.2 SITUATION B: During a throw-in by A-1 from the end line by Team A’s basket: (a) A2 is in the restricted lane area for four seconds of the throw-in count; or (b) the throw-in is touched by A2 before it goes across the division line where it is recovered by A3. RULING: Legal in (a) and (b), even though Team A is in team control during the throw-in. There is no three-second count in (a) since team control had not yet been established in Team A’s frontcourt. There is no backcourt violation in (b) since team control had not yet been established in team A’s frontcourt before the ball went into Team A’s backcourt. The throw-in ends when A2 legally touches the ball, but the backcourt count does not start until A3 gains control in his/her backcourt. (9-7, 8, 9)

And we have this:

4.19.7 SITUATION D: A1 has the ball for a throw in. The throw-in pass deflects off of A2. As A2 and B2 are attempting to retrieve the loose throw-in pass, A2 illegally pushes B2 from behind and is called for a foul. Team B is in the bonus. RULING: Team A is in control during this throw in, therefore a team-control foul has been committed. B2 is awarded a throw in at a spot closest to where the foul occurred. (4-12-6)

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Um...actually it is in the book. You clearly didn't look hard enough. I gave you the page number to the exact same thing Billy posted.

And I said thanks for the cite...See Camron’s post for the rest of what I meant. That wording should be in book each year. Thx again for the cite.

[BillyMac]

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. Before A1 releases his throwin pass, A2 sets an illegal screen against B2. Team control foul charged to A2. No free throws for B2.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 catches the ball inbounds, obtaining player control inbounds and thus team control. A3 then sets an illegal screen against B3. Team control foul charged to A3. No free throws for B3.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 catches the ball inbounds, obtaining player control inbounds and thus team control. A2, after catching the ball (holding, possession) immediately fumbles the ball. During the fumble, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team control foul charged to A3. No free throws for B3.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 touches the ball inbounds but never obtains player control inbounds (no holding, no possession), and thus never obtains team control inbounds. The legal touch by A2 inbounds ends the throwin. During the loose ball, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team B is in the bonus. Is a team control foul charged to A3 (thus no free throws for B3), or does B3 shoot free throws?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. Before A1 releases his throwin pass, A2 sets an illegal screen against B2. Team control foul charged to A2. No free throws for B2.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 catches the ball inbounds, obtaining player control inbounds and thus team control. A3 then sets an illegal screen against B3. Team control foul charged to A3. No free throws for B3.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 catches the ball inbounds, obtaining player control inbounds and thus team control. A2, after catching the ball (holding, possession) immediately fumbles the ball. During the fumble, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team control foul charged to A3. No free throws for B3.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 touches the ball inbounds but immediately fumbles the ball (no holding, no possession), never obtaining player control inbounds, and thus never obtaining team control inbounds. Of course, the simple, legal touch by A2 inbounds ended the throwin. During the fumble, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team B is in the bonus. Is a team control foul charged to A3 (thus no free throws for B3), or does B3 shoot free throws?

Your last play is still team control. Team A's team control (for the purposes of fouls) begins when the throw-in begins. It, like true team control, continues until something that ends team control occurs: the ball becomes dead, the other team gains control, or team A releases a try. A fumble doesn't end team control.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 touches the ball inbounds but immediately fumbles the ball (no holding, no possession), never obtaining player control inbounds, and thus never obtaining team control inbounds. Of course, the simple, legal touch by A2 inbounds ended the throwin. During the fumble, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team B is in the bonus. Is a team control foul charged to A3 (thus no free throws for B3), or does B3 shoot free throws?

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Your last play is still team control. Team A's team control (for the purposes of fouls) begins when the throw-in begins. It, like true team control, continues until something that ends team control occurs: the ball becomes dead, the other team gains control, or team A releases a try. A fumble doesn't end team control.

Thank you for confirming what I believed to be true.

4-12-3: Team control continues until:
a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.
b. An opponent secures control.
c. The ball becomes dead.

I got sidetracked by the throwin ending.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. Before A1 releases his throwin pass, A2 sets an illegal screen against B2. Team control foul charged to A2. No free throws for B2.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 catches the ball inbounds, obtaining player control inbounds and thus team control. A3 then sets an illegal screen against B3. Team control foul charged to A3. No free throws for B3.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 catches the ball inbounds, obtaining player control inbounds and thus team control. A2, after catching the ball (holding, possession) immediately fumbles the ball. During the fumble, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team control foul charged to A3. No free throws for B3.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 touches the ball inbounds but immediately fumbles the ball (no holding, no possession), never obtaining player control inbounds, and thus never obtaining team control inbounds. Of course, the simple, legal touch by A2 inbounds ended the throwin. During the fumble, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team B is in the bonus. Is a team control foul charged to A3 (thus no free throws for B3), or does B3 shoot free throws?

FWIW

Your description (no holding, no possession) contradicts the rulebook definition of "fumble." If there was no holding/possession (i.e. player control) then the player could not have "fumbled" the ball. Better not to have used the word or perhaps substituted "deflected" or "muffed."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by billyu2

Your description (no holding, no possession) contradicts the rulebook definition of "fumble." If there was no holding/possession (i.e. player control) then the player could not have "fumbled" the ball. Better not to have used the word or perhaps substituted "deflected" or "muffed."

Good point. Thanks.

4-21: A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball
unintentionally drops or slips from a player’s grasp.