Illegal Dribble Scenarios

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree.

But in this situation the loss of player control was not "because of a touch by an opponent", as required by rule.

In this situation the loss of player control during the interrupted dribble was because of the ball handler's own ineptitude (maybe the dribbled ball hit off his foot).

The "another player" part of the rule isn't relevant because there was no pass, nor was there a fumble, in this situation.

I have deleted 2 responses. I agree with the OP ruling 99%, especially after research and reading NFHS case 4.15.4 Sit D and Sit E. I will get over that 1% hump soon enough.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

... NFHS case 4.15.4 Sit E.

4.15.4 SITUATION E: While A1 is dribbling in A’s backcourt, the ball legally touches B1’s leg, causing it to bounce away from A1. A1 quickly recovers the ball with two hands and then starts another dribble. RULING: Legal. The touch by B1 ended the original dribble and A1 could then recover and dribble again. However, the touch by B1 did not end team control and the 10-second backcourt count continues. (9-5-2)

9-5-2: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of: A touch by an opponent.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

9-5-2: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of: A touch by an opponent.

9-3 ... a pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched, by another player

So, it comes down to whether an interrupted dribble and a fumble are (or should be) treated the same in these situations. The definitions are nearly identical.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

9-3 ... a pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched, by another player

So, it comes down to whether an interrupted dribble and a fumble are (or should be) treated the same in these situations. The definitions are nearly identical.

4-21: A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball
unintentionally drops or slips from a player’s grasp.

4-15-5: An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after
deflecting off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the
dribbler. There is no player control during an interrupted dribble.

A fumble involves a "player's grasp", an interrupted dribble doesn't.

I don't see any "grasp" in this situation (the dribbled ball ball deflects off his shoe), until the very end, which is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A1 loses control of the ball as a result his own ineptitude (ball deflects off his shoe) which results in an interrupted dribble. Ball legally touches opponent B2's leg. A1 picks up (catches) the loose ball after it touches B2? Can A1 legally start a new dribble?

I believe that Raymond hit the ball out of the park:

Originally Posted by Raymond

That's probably how most of us have officiated it, but it's not what the rule book says.

[bucky]

Yea, all that makes sense. Now, what if someone holding the ball fumbles it as they begin their initial dribble? Is that to be considered a fumble, as the ball came from the player's grasp, or is it considered to be an interrupted dribble, as the ball got away from the player while attempting to dribble?

Is there anything anywhere that defines or recognizes an interrupted dribble as only being part of action whereby someone has already dribbled at least once? It probably does not matter as it comes down to how you judge the action.

A dribble is an intentional act while a fumble is an unintentional act. If a player begins an initial dribble (intentional act) and it becomes an interrupted dribble that hits a teammate, then they can recover, but not dribble again. If a player, who has not dribbled yet, fumbles (unintentional act) the ball and it hits a teammate, then they can recover and dribble. Agree?


I hope I never have this play happen:

A1 inbounds the ball to A2 in Team A's BC under heavy, full court pressure. A2 attempts a high, cross-court pass that hits Team B's backboard. The ball rebounds and deflects off A1 (who had stepped inbounds), A3, A4, and A5, before being controlled by A2. A2 dribbles and is called for illegal dribble. Doesn't seem right does it?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

... someone holding the ball fumbles it as they begin their initial dribble? Is that to be considered a fumble, as the ball came from the player's grasp ...?

Yes, assuming that at one point that he had it in his grasp (players can start dribbles in other ways).

4-21: A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball
unintentionally drops or slips from a player’s grasp.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

A1 inbounds the ball to A2 in Team A's BC under heavy, full court pressure. A2 attempts a high, cross-court pass that hits Team B's backboard. The ball rebounds and deflects off A1 (who had stepped inbounds), A3, A4, and A5, before being controlled by A2. A2 dribbles and is called for illegal dribble.

A2 throwing the ball and hitting Team B's backboard is considered to be part of a dribble.

In a real game, and with A2's "passed" ball hitting Team B's backboard (that alone would be surprising), and then the ball ricocheting off of several players, I would have probably forgotten that A2 had already dribbled once.

Basketball Rules Fundamentals
19. A ball which touches the front face or edges of the backboard is treated
the same as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches
the thrower’s backboard, it does not constitute a part of a dribble.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I would have probably forgotten that A2 had already dribbled once.

Not after this thread.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A2 throwing the ball and hitting Team B's backboard is considered to be part of a dribble.

In a real game, and with A2's "passed" ball hitting Team B's backboard (that alone would be surprising), and then the ball ricocheting off of several players, I would have probably forgotten that A2 had already dribbled once.

Basketball Rules Fundamentals
19. A ball which touches the front face or edges of the backboard is treated
the same as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches
the thrower’s backboard, it does not constitute a part of a dribble.

Provided A2 is the first to touch the ball. (4.15.4C) In this situation the ball hitting the opponent's backboard means nothing because the ball then was first touched/deflected by teammate(s). A2 can recover the deflected pass and dribble without penalty. Correct?