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Old Sat Feb 22, 2020, 12:47pm
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losing control of throw in

this happened in d2 college game and someone asked me about it. throw in along sideline, ball handed to player, he winds up to throw it, loses control and it goes behind him into the stands.

the official gets it back from the fan and gives it back to player, resetting and allowing throw in.

no reason this should have been allowed, right? actually was end of game situation, team with ball had one point lead, ended up winning. i say if ball given cleanly to throw in and he loses it, it's a violation.
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Old Sat Feb 22, 2020, 12:57pm
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Designated Spot ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
... he loses it, it's a violation.
NFHS: Assuming no help from the administering official (once the official handles it, all normal rules no longer apply), would the inbounder have to leave his three foot wide designated spot and/or would the play take more than five seconds?

The inbounder is allowed to fumble (out of bounds), jump, move both feet, move his pivot foot, dribble (out of bounds), step on the boundary line (not over), and move backward as far as space allows; as long as the inbounder keeps one foot on, or over, the three foot wide designated spot and releases the ball within five seconds.

So what did the inbounder illegally do to cause a violation?

In my opinion, this is an error by the administering official (however, maybe the fan wouldn't return the ball so the official had to get involved), and if the official hadn't handled the ball it may not have been a violation by the inbounder, certainly not for losing the ball as described in the original post (need more information).

Even if the inbounder had fumbled the ball inbounds, it's still not a violation unless the inbounder is the first to touch the inbounded ball.

Why would it be a violation for the inbounder to simply fumble the ball out of bounds?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Feb 22, 2020 at 02:07pm.
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Old Sat Feb 22, 2020, 02:55pm
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BM makes good points. If the thrower could legally recover the ball without leaving the designated throw-in spot, I don’t see a violation here.
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Old Sat Feb 22, 2020, 03:01pm
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If It's Not Illegal, Then It's Legal ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
If the thrower could legally recover the ball without leaving the designated throw-in spot ...
... and release the inbound pass within five seconds ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I don’t see a violation here.
And neither do I.
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Old Sun Feb 23, 2020, 03:29pm
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So, is a player allowed to go into the stands to retrieve a ball?
Then I guess the Thrower, while still holding the ball, can go backwards up into the stands ( a few rows) so s/he can throw the ball over the defender???
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Old Sun Feb 23, 2020, 03:46pm
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Intelligently Applied ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
So, is a player allowed to go into the stands to retrieve a ball? Then I guess the Thrower, while still holding the ball, can go backwards up into the stands (a few rows) so s/he can throw the ball over the defender???
By rule, move backward as far as space (and time) allows.

By intent and purpose, rules must be intelligently applied in each play situation.

Intentional, or unintentional? Advantage, or disadvantage, and to whom?

Maybe it was a good thing that the official reset the administration of the inbound, probably preventing some unintended consequences?

If climbing on teammate to secure greater height is illegal, how about climbing on a chair, bleacher, volleyball ladder, wrestling mat, gymnastics mat, etc.?

T-worthy, or "Don't do that"?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Feb 23, 2020 at 06:11pm.
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Old Sun Feb 23, 2020, 06:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
By rule, move backward as far as space (and time) allows.

Maybe it was a good thing that the official reset the administration of the inbound
SO is going into the stands part of the 'SPACE ALLOWED'?
I feel the player ran out of space by going into the stands, thus the official should not have reset the administration of the Throw-in.
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Old Sun Feb 23, 2020, 07:59pm
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If It's Not Illegal, It's Legal ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
SO is going into the stands part of the 'SPACE ALLOWED'?
I've allowed inbounders, after a made basket, to get a ball in front of a curtain on a stage (in some of our state technical school gyms).

Same thing with bleachers with fans behind the end lines.

I don't start my five second count until they get back on the court, all with the clock running.

If it's not illegal, it's legal.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Feb 24, 2020 at 12:59pm.
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Old Mon Feb 24, 2020, 08:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
this happened in d2 college game and someone asked me about it. throw in along sideline, ball handed to player, he winds up to throw it, loses control and it goes behind him into the stands.

the official gets it back from the fan and gives it back to player, resetting and allowing throw in.

no reason this should have been allowed, right? actually was end of game situation, team with ball had one point lead, ended up winning. i say if ball given cleanly to throw in and he loses it, it's a violation.

NCAAM Case Book:
A.R. 180. A1, on a throw-in from a designated spot, fumbles the ball. A1 leaves
the designated spot to retrieve the fumble. Is this a violation?
RULING: No. Since there was a fumble, the official shall blow
his whistle, which causes the ball to become dead, and then shall
re-administer the throw-in.
(Rule 7-6.8.d and 4-16.1)
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Old Mon Feb 24, 2020, 12:41pm
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Readminister Throwin ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
NCAAM Case Book:
A.R. 180. A1, on a throw-in from a designated spot, fumbles the ball. A1 leaves
the designated spot to retrieve the fumble. Is this a violation?
RULING: No. Since there was a fumble, the official shall blow
his whistle, which causes the ball to become dead, and then shall
re-administer the throw-in.
(Rule 7-6.8.d and 4-16.1)
Nice college citation bob jenkins.

Does it matter if the inbounder fumbles because of a bad hand off, or a bad bounce pass from the administering official, or if the inbounder has complete control and then fumbles as he is making the inbound pass?

In my high school game, If I make a bad hand off, or a bad bounce pass, leading to a fumble, I'm sounding my whistle and readministering.

If I make a good hand off, or a good bounce pass, and the inbounder fumbles after having full control, I wouldn't readminister.

9.2.1 SITUATION B: A1, out of bounds for a designated spot throw-in: (a) muffs the pass from the official and it rolls forward; or (b) after receiving the ball from the official, fumbles the ball and leaves the designated spot to retrieve the fumble. RULING: In (a), the official should sound the whistle to prevent any violations and then start the throw-in procedure again. No throw-in violation should be called in this situation. In (b), a throw-in violation shall be called on A1 for leaving the designated spot.

Similar to a fumble by the free thrower, the ball going into the lane.

9.1.1 SITUATION: A1, at the free-throw line to attempt a free throw: (a) muffs the pass from the official and it rolls forward; or (b) while performing his/her habitual dribbles prior to the release, accidentally allows the ball to deflect off his/her foot into the lane. RULING: In (a), the official should sound the whistle to prevent any violations and then start the free throw procedure again. No free-throw violation should be ruled in this situation. In (b), a free-throw violation shall be called on A1. (9-1-3a, e)
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Feb 24, 2020 at 12:58pm.
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Old Mon Feb 24, 2020, 01:53pm
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I think that if you want to call the violation for leaving the spot to retrieve or 5 seconds (at least at HS level) the rules would back you up. NCAA seems to a have an interp already. The big HOWEVER I would put in there from the OP is the official retrieving the ball from the fan. Whether the able to retrieve the ball without violating or not, if a fumble results in the fan(s) in possession of the ball I think for management purposes you need to blow the play and re-administer. Asking a flustered player to scramble and try to retrieve a ball physically amongst and from fans whose reaction we can't determine seems like a recipe for more problems than it solves.
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Old Mon Feb 24, 2020, 02:11pm
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Buy Me Some Peanuts And Crackerjack ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post
... for management purposes you need to blow the play and re-administer. Asking a flustered player to scramble and try to retrieve a ball physically amongst and from fans whose reaction we can't determine seems like a recipe for more problems than it solves.
Agree. Fans may want to keep the ball, like at a baseball game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Maybe it was a good thing that the official reset the administration of the inbound, probably preventing some unintended consequences?
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Feb 24, 2020 at 03:54pm.
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Old Mon Feb 24, 2020, 10:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
NCAAM Case Book:
A.R. 180. A1, on a throw-in from a designated spot, fumbles the ball. A1 leaves
the designated spot to retrieve the fumble. Is this a violation?
RULING: No. Since there was a fumble, the official shall blow
his whistle, which causes the ball to become dead, and then shall
re-administer the throw-in.
(Rule 7-6.8.d and 4-16.1)
This is crazy. According to this, A1 could fumble the ball an unlimited number of times in trying to make an inbound pass. Don't see how this could be correct.

On a sideline throw-in, A1 could look to pass along the sideline, fumble the ball, have it bounce 10 feet out of bounds along the sideline, go get it, and return. Then gets another crack at it? Say what?

Close game and A1 has ball for throw-in. Official's 5 second count is at 4 so A1 makes it appear as if he fumbles the ball and retrieves it. Are you giving him another chance?
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Old Tue Feb 25, 2020, 08:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
This is crazy. According to this, A1 could fumble the ball an unlimited number of times in trying to make an inbound pass. Don't see how this could be correct.

On a sideline throw-in, A1 could look to pass along the sideline, fumble the ball, have it bounce 10 feet out of bounds along the sideline, go get it, and return. Then gets another crack at it? Say what?

Close game and A1 has ball for throw-in. Official's 5 second count is at 4 so A1 makes it appear as if he fumbles the ball and retrieves it. Are you giving him another chance?
It's no different from the play where A1 muffs / bobbles the pass or fumbles the ball and Coach B wants traveling. "You mean they could do that all the way down the court?" is the usual comment.

In practice it's just not that difficult.
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Old Tue Feb 25, 2020, 11:19am
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You Can't Do That ...

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
A1 could fumble the ball an unlimited number of times in trying to make an inbound pass.
Key point for some of us: Not in high school (assuming it's a good hand off, or bounce pass, from the administering official, and fully controlled by the inbounder).

9.2.1 SITUATION B: A1, out of bounds for a designated spot throw-in ... after receiving the ball from the official, fumbles the ball and leaves the designated spot to retrieve the fumble. RULING: ...a throw-in violation shall be called on A1 for leaving the designated spot.

I also don't like the college interpretation, but I know more about producing a vaccine for the coronavirus than I know about college interpretations.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Feb 25, 2020 at 12:38pm.
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