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crosscountry55 Tue Jan 28, 2020 02:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1037202)
Open looks trump inflexible philosophies about coverage areas.


I can’t tell you how refreshing it is to hear that.

I’ve had way too many pregames this year where my R has uttered the stale and antiquated, “Tonight we’re going to referee our primaries...stay in your primary...unless it’s an elephant, blah blah blah.” These are quality varsity games and our conversations are at the 101 level instead of the 401 level. And I know what some of you are thinking....”well, Cross, as the U2 you have to step in and take charge of the pregame...” Hey I’m with ya, but around here usurping some of our grizzly veterans is about as taboo as a loud fart in church on Christmas morning. So after a while you just have to live with the fact that elements of your association are about ten years behind the times. It’s frustrating.



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JRutledge Tue Jan 28, 2020 03:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1037214)
I can’t tell you how refreshing it is to hear that.

I’ve had way too many pregames this year where my R has uttered the stale and antiquated, “Tonight we’re going to referee our primaries...stay in your primary...unless it’s an elephant, blah blah blah.”

I do not have any issues with that being said. I still think you should do this for the most part. But you have to know when to come out of your primary and this probably was not one of them. Or we do not have a primary in transition. This was in transition. The calling official appeared to guess. And I have no idea if the lead saw this at all or had an opinion. The bottom line, if you make a call see it clearly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1037214)
These are quality varsity games and our conversations are at the 101 level instead of the 401 level. And I know what some of you are thinking....”well, Cross, as the U2 you have to step in and take charge of the pregame...” Hey I’m with ya, but around here usurping some of our grizzly veterans is about as taboo as a loud fart in church on Christmas morning. So after a while you just have to live with the fact that elements of your association are about ten years behind the times. It’s frustrating.

So you cannot say something in the pregame with your partners in the locker room? You cannot ask questions or be specific about a situation and ask "How do you handle it?"

Peace

BillyMac Tue Jan 28, 2020 03:53pm

Reasonable Question ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1037215)
"How do you handle it?"

Sounds like a thoughtful, reasonable question to me.

so cal lurker Tue Jan 28, 2020 05:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1037214)
I’ve had way too many pregames this year where my R has uttered the stale and antiquated, “Tonight we’re going to referee our primaries...stay in your primary...unless it’s an elephant, blah blah blah.” These are quality varsity games and our conversations are at the 101 level instead of the 401 level.

I ref soccer, not basketball, but I've noticed essentially the same thing about pregames: too many referees fall into a canned pregame that doesn't give thought to the particular game, the level of play, or who their partners are that day. Pregames--whatever the sport--should involve thought, not rote recitation.

BillyMac Tue Jan 28, 2020 06:09pm

Flexible Pregames ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 1037229)
... thought to the particular game, the level of play, or who their partners are that day. Pregames--whatever the sport--should involve thought, not rote recitation.

I worked with a brand new rookie partner last week. Only her sixth game, first with me. I took out my notes, and went through the whole nine yards (we had plenty of time).

Afterward I explained to her that not all pregames are the same. The length and breadth of my pregame depends on the experience of my partner, my experience with my partner, how early or late in the season it is, and how much time we have for a pregame.

johnny d Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:06pm

Pregames are a waste of time. People talk, listen, shake their heads in agreement, and then go out on the court and referee the same way they always do. My pregame is very simple. Don't **** up, and if you do don't expect me to bail you out. Again, at the end of the day, guys just fall back into their old habits anyway.

ODog Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:06am

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny d (Post 1037231)
Pregames are a waste of time. People talk, listen, shake their heads in agreement, and then go out on the court and referee the same way they always do ... at the end of the day, guys just fall back into their old habits anyway.

Sad, but totally true. While I find them useful in the sense of at least getting into a basketball frame of mind and visualizing that you're about to be doing a game in 20-25 minutes, most guys just "yup, yup, yup" through it and then do whatever they always do, for better or worse.

JRutledge Wed Jan 29, 2020 09:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny d (Post 1037231)
Pregames are a waste of time. People talk, listen, shake their heads in agreement, and then go out on the court and referee the same way they always do. My pregame is very simple. Don't **** up, and if you do don't expect me to bail you out. Again, at the end of the day, guys just fall back into their old habits anyway.

I totally disagree with that. For one the pregame is not for you to shape how others officiate or the things you call. It is for you to start talking basketball or get your mind on the game. I know travel can be frustrating. Our jobs can be frustrating. Our families can be frustrating. The pregame gets us to what we are supposed to be doing for that couple of hours and that is to call a game. No one cares about our personal issues when

I can tell you when you work with people you never met or have no idea what they do, a pregame helps me set some expectations or understand my partners. If we talk about nothing then how do we handle things. Sometimes I just want to know my partner's attitude about uniforms so when we start the game we know how that is going to be handled or why it will be handled in a certain way.

Peace

BillyMac Wed Jan 29, 2020 09:37am

Wouldn't It Be Nice (The Beach Boys, 1966) ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1037233)
... when you work with people you never met or have no idea what they do, a pregame helps me set some expectations or understand my partners ... how do we handle things ... want to know my partner's attitude about uniforms so when we start the game we know how that is going to be handled ...

Agree, especially with inexperienced partners and/or partners that you have never worked with, or haven't worked with in a long time.

Boundary responsibilities old school versus new school, attitude about out-of-bounds help, liberal or conservative primary coverage areas, by the book or otherwise put the ball in play where it goes out of bounds or violation, by the book or otherwise switches, handling double whistles and preliminary signals, communication by nonadministering official not ready on throwins, who identifies free throw shooter, handling less than a minute and last second shot.

I wish that everybody officiated the same exact consistent way, but that's not the case here in my little corner of Connecticut.

"If wishes were horses, beggars would ride." (Scottish proverb)

BillyMac Wed Jan 29, 2020 09:59am

Fashion Pregame ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1037233)
... want to know my partner's attitude about uniforms so when we start the game we know how that is going to be handled or why it will be handled in a certain way.

Especially now that I'm working midafternoon middle school games, especially girls games. I want to know exactly how both of us are going to handle fashion police issues before we step out onto the court. I don't want a good cop/bad cop routine once we get out there.

For your information, this is my second year working middle school games. As the referee, I concentrate on undershirts, headbands, and wristbands, ignoring arm sleeves and leg sleeves. I will try to get girls to comply with the undershirt requirement, but will listen to coaches who sincerely complain that their young adolescent girls are bashful about wearing sleeveless jerseys, which in many cases are nothing more than sleeveless thin fabric reversible practice pinnies. If it's a choice of several girls not playing that afternoon or allowing them to play, I will often side with allowing them to play. Boys don't get the same allowance. I know that this isn't by the book, but it's certainly a little better than the Wild Wild West approach of many of my middle school official colleagues.

"But I've worn this headband all season."

Raymond Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1037233)
I totally disagree with that. For one the pregame is not for you to shape how others officiate or the things you call. It is for you to start talking basketball or get your mind on the game. I know travel can be frustrating. Our jobs can be frustrating. Our families can be frustrating. The pregame gets us to what we are supposed to be doing for that couple of hours and that is to call a game. No one cares about our personal issues when



I can tell you when you work with people you never met or have no idea what they do, a pregame helps me set some expectations or understand my partners. If we talk about nothing then how do we handle things. Sometimes I just want to know my partner's attitude about uniforms so when we start the game we know how that is going to be handled or why it will be handled in a certain way.



Peace

I had a pre-game once with two guys who definitely needed a pregame, and the 4 situations I specifically covered happened by halftime.

Pre-games are great to get your mind on basketball and thinking about plays and having the correct mindset.

Also when you working with a guys you rarely work with, which happens in college basketball a lot, it helps ensure you're on the same page mechanically.

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JRutledge Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1037236)
I had a pre-game once with two guys who definitely needed a pregame, and the 4 situations I specifically covered happened by halftime.

Pre-games are great to get your mind on basketball and thinking about plays and having the correct mindset.

Also when you working with a guys you rarely work with, which happens in college basketball a lot, it helps ensure you're on the same page mechanically.

In college basketball, you can work in different conferences and you have different supervisors that have different philosophies on things as well. Sometimes the pregame is just to discuss the different situations you have been in and things addressed by a specific conference. And even different levels bring different standards. I work NAIA games and that sometimes has a different standard or expectation than a D2 or D3 game.

Peace

youngump Sat Feb 01, 2020 01:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1037189)
...For which his school was subsequently fined $20K, and I’m sure it’s in his contract that this will come out of his pocket. To his credit, he has already apologized and accepted responsibility.


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Has the official in question? Suppressing coach speech to improve the perception of the state of officiating is a dangerous game. Forcing people to say they are sorry when they are not doesn't help either. This was a huge call late in the game, from a weird spot on the floor, sold badly, and wrong and then compounded with a technical foul(*). Freeing up everybody to speak their mind about that is much more likely to lead to catharsis, healing or necessary changes then the current kabuki we're in.

(*) And I would assume based on the score and delta from where they would have been without this call effectively ended the game, though I didn't see it and have no interest in going to check.

SC Official Sat Feb 01, 2020 01:50pm

I abso-f******-lutely hate the stupid "don't compound a missed call with a technical foul" nonsense.

Sorry, but coaches and players don't get to do whatever they want just because they may have a legitimate beef.

youngump Sat Feb 01, 2020 02:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1037286)
I abso-f******-lutely hate the stupid "don't compound a missed call with a technical foul" nonsense.

Sorry, but coaches and players don't get to do whatever they want just because they may have a legitimate beef.

Well, that seems like a rather extreme position that I've never heard anybody defend. But there is something to be said for some judgment about how much to allow. But whether it is nonsense or not, that wasn't the thing I was saying. Whether we should have a preference for allowing more rope after bigger calls or calls that we had to sell funny or the like, the point remains that in this case this call WAS compounded by a technical.


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