Kansas/Kansas State Brouhaha

[IUgrad92]

Somewhat surprised there is no thread on this yet.

Was there anything the Trail official or the crew as a whole could have done to prevent this situation?

*** Somewhat side not: I've had many blow out games this season where the team ahead ends up standing for 10-15 seconds running out the clock. During summer ball, once I see the losing team has 'given up', I end the game (always usually under 20 seconds). But we can't do this for high school games. In these 'dribble out the clock' scenarios, absolutely nothing positive can happen, but there are a bunch of DUMB things that can happen. Would love for NFHS to look at this.... Thoughts?

[BillyMac]

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Somewhat surprised there is no thread on this yet.



Was there anything the Trail official or the crew as a whole could have done to prevent this situation?



...

The Trail would have been about 80 or 90 feet away from this play, so a definite no for him.

I don't know how a crew prevents players from making dumb decisions and doing stupid stuff.

And there was probably no thread on this because it has nothing to do with the officiating. It needs to be in a coach's thread.



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[JRutledge]

Seriously, what could the crew have done for the team's stupidity?

Usually, players just end the game knowing the game is over, but not here. This actually happened to Kansas earlier in the year where a player stole the ball in a blowout and dunked after a steal. I am not sure what the crew could have done if the entire benches empty. Yes you can turn around and maybe try to hold them up, but that takes some understanding that is not a good idea on the part of the teams.

Peace

[IUgrad92]

My bad..... initially Trail, then to new Lead. Thought that was an assumption I could make, but normally learn that there's always one.....

Here's the point I was trying to get at....

First, bad play/decision by the Kansas St. defender on stealing the ball. Definitely not warranted or necessary. What if Trail nails him with a hand check foul? Likely, nothing occurs afterwards, you shoot Bonus and game over.

Second, probably not the best decision for Kansas player to aggressively go after K State player on the block shot. Why not just walk towards your bench, let him have the silly 2 points, and get ready to shake hands? However, what if new Lead has a STRONG whistle for body contact on the Kansas defender and immediately closes down and has a presence with the involved players? Does anything likely occur at that point?

In both plays, was there an actual foul committed? Likely not. But in either/both cases I fully believe a whistle could have been a huge prevention tool. And if like most games, a foul in either of these two plays likely would not have been the worst call made during this specific game.

[SC Official]

Maybe if they had covered this more thoroughly in pregame, it wouldn't have happened.


Guys don't get to the level by being MSU officials.

Calling a personal foul on the steal or the layup would have been a MSU call. And in the waning moments of a 22-point game, the worst thing you can do is prolong it by calling unnecessary crap that's not there for everyone to see.

It's easy to referee in hindsight, but that's not how life works. These are three of the top officials in the country; there's nothing they could do once De Sousa decided to taunt the KSU player while on the ground. Not their fault that the clock expired and the benches emptied.

I don't buy the "if you call a foul on the body contact, he wouldn't have taunted him." I've called many technicals on defenders taunting after getting called for a foul.

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Maybe if they had covered this more thoroughly in pregame, it wouldn't have happened.


Guys don't get to the level by being MSU officials.

Calling a personal foul on the steal or the layup would have been a MSU call. And in the waning moments of a 22-point game, the worst thing you can do is prolong it by calling unnecessary crap that's not there for everyone to see.

It's easy to referee in hindsight, but that's not how life works. These are three of the top officials in the country; there's nothing they could do once De Sousa decided to taunt the KSU player while on the ground. Not their fault that the clock expired and the benches emptied.

I don't buy the "if you call a foul on the body contact, he wouldn't have taunted him." I've called many technicals on defenders taunting after getting called for a foul.

What does that mean "MSU official"?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

My bad..... initially Trail, then to new Lead. Thought that was an assumption I could make, but normally learn that there's always one.....

Here's the point I was trying to get at....

First, bad play/decision by the Kansas St. defender on stealing the ball. Definitely not warranted or necessary. What if Trail nails him with a hand check foul? Likely, nothing occurs afterwards, you shoot Bonus and game over.

Second, probably not the best decision for Kansas player to aggressively go after K State player on the block shot. Why not just walk towards your bench, let him have the silly 2 points, and get ready to shake hands? However, what if new Lead has a STRONG whistle for body contact on the Kansas defender and immediately closes down and has a presence with the involved players? Does anything likely occur at that point?

In both plays, was there an actual foul committed? Likely not. But in either/both cases I fully believe a whistle could have been a huge prevention tool. And if like most games, a foul in either of these two plays likely would not have been the worst call made during this specific game.

The covering official is John Higgins.
He gets stuck behind the play because it surprises him when the K St player steals the ball. Everyone was expecting the simple run out the clock action. Higgins almost gets run over by the K St player and then is not in a good position to handle the shot attempt. There is a clear foul on the shot by #5 of Kansas for whacking the shooter’s arm. The other defender blocks the ball cleanly.

Would calling this foul have made any difference to the ensuing aftermath? I seriously doubt it. The animosity which occurred there is going to take place either with or without a foul call.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Would love for NFHS to look at this.... Thoughts?

Coaches can agree to shorten a quarter. Maybe it could be a POE next year to let them agree in situations like this.

[Raymond]

Maybe players shouldn't do stupid sh!t, then we wouldn't have to look for reasons to blame the officials for not having ESP.

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[bucky]

I have to respectfully disagree with the idea that the official(s) could not do something different. This play mostly reminds me of my soccer officiating days but I do also apply some things currently in basketball to prevent this type of stuff.

Verbal guidance may have prevented all of this. Typically, in games like this with the outcome decided, I can read the body language of the players, especially the ones that tend to make poor decisions. As the player was dribbling out the clock, the official easily could have been saying "games over, be smart", "no foul", "easy", "just hold it", etc. After the steal, I would have been nearly yelling "let him go" or "no, no, no". Anything to verbally assist the knuckleheads when the game is out of reach.

Maybe the ref was doing that but that certainly did not appear to be the case. In fact, Higgins go in the way. He was relaxed (as we all probably would have been) but he could have been in better position by eyeballing the defender.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bucky

I have to respectfully disagree with the idea that the official(s) could not do something different. This play mostly reminds me of my soccer officiating days but I do also apply some things currently in basketball to prevent this type of stuff.

Verbal guidance may have prevented all of this. Typically, in games like this with the outcome decided, I can read the body language of the players, especially the ones that tend to make poor decisions. As the player was dribbling out the clock, the official easily could have been saying "games over, be smart", "no foul", "easy", "just hold it", etc. After the steal, I would have been nearly yelling "let him go" or "no, no, no". Anything to verbally assist the knuckleheads when the game is out of reach.

Maybe the ref was doing that but that certainly did not appear to be the case. In fact, Higgins go in the way. He was relaxed (as we all probably would have been) but he could have been in better position by eyeballing the defender.

That’s not officiating. That’s coaching and directing the players. That’s not our role in the game, especially at the D1 men’s level.

[Player989random]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That’s not officiating. That’s coaching and directing the players. That’s not our role in the game, especially at the D1 men’s level.

I've been to a D1 camp where that was promoted. I've been to a D1 camp where we were told not to do that. I've had professional soccer refs do that, and those that are mic'd up say it as well. It's called "preventative officiating", and quite frankly if it gets their hands up or stops a stupid foul, I'm doing it unless the supervisor tells me to quit it.

As for this? I'd MSU in the moment. Doesn't mean it'd work, or that it'd prevent what happened at the end, but is anyone going to complain if we have foul here? 22 point game and we have extra free throws? I'll take that IC.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I am arriving late to the party and admit that I have not read in comments in the thread because I am commenting from two different perspectives.

The Kansas State at Kansas game was played just 4 days shy of the 48th anniversary of the Ohio State at Minnesota game, which was played on January 25, 1972.

First, for the newer members of the Forum, I am a native of NE Ohio and played H.S. basketball at Youngstown Liberty H.S. from 1965 to 1969, the same years that Luke Witte played at Marlington H.S, also in NE Ohio. While our schools teams paths never passed every one in NE Ohio knew who Luke was. So it was an absolute shock that a savage act by MLB Hall of Fame member Dave Winfield and a couple of his teammates would not result in criminal action. Winfield was never punished with a suspension while two of his teammates were suspended for the rest of the season by the Big 10. Witte was taken off the court on a stretcher, taken the the UM hospital with a concussion. As a first year official and a life long Buckeye fan it was disgusting.

Second, for the newer members of the Forum, I am a life long KU fan. My late mother was an East Kansas farm girl and graduated from KU in 1942. When Mark, Jr., and Andy, were first learning to talk, while Bonnie and I were trying to teach them how to say momma and poppa, my mother taught them how to say: Rock! Chalk! Jay Hawk!! KaaaayyyyUUUU!! I found the actions of the KU players equally disgusting and as much as I want to see KU win, I would have no problem with they were suspended for the rest of the season by the Big 12.

That's all.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. The rivalry between these two schools when it comes to sports is no less that between xichigan and Ohio State.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That’s not officiating. That’s coaching and directing the players. That’s not our role in the game, especially at the D1 men’s level.

Well, not sure what to tell you other than I respectfully disagree. At every game I have ever witnessed, played, coached, and officiated, the officials directed the players many, many times throughout the game.

Have you ever conducted a jump ball and told the players which direction they were going? Have you ever told the players how many shots there were during a FT? Have you ever advised the inbounding team where the inbound would take place? Have you ever told a player they had 5 fouls and were disqualified? Ever tell an inbounder they could run the endline? After a made basket in a lower level game, ever tell a confused player to take the ball out? How about telling a college team/inbounder, before a throw-in, how much time they have to get the ball to the FC? How about an inadvertent horn during play and telling the players to "play"? Heck, even pointing at the shot clock at under 10 seconds gives communication to players. I also find it very difficult that you have never thrown a verbal "easy" towards some players.

Those are just several of the hundreds of times that officials coach and direct players. Not sure what angle you were trying to illustrate. I'd be willing to bet that if Higgins was commanding the players to "be smart" several times as he closed near the ball handler/defender, then that melee would not have occurred.

It may not be our specific role as you say, but look at what might be indeed a large part of it: player safety. There is nothing wrong with reminding players that you are there. There is nothing wrong with assisting them in making wise decisions regarding their safety, sportsmanship, and the good of the game....especially when the game is so lopsided and seconds away from being finished.