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-   -   rule question (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/104898-rule-question.html)

bob jenkins Mon Jan 06, 2020 04:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1036553)
I can one realistic version of this scenario:

A1 chases down an interrupted dribble with the ball now rolling slowly on the floor. Right before B1 gets to the ball, A1 bats it to cause it to roll away from B1, then bats it again to cause it to roll away from B2, then A1 chases the ball down and picks it up.
Somewhere in the rule book there's a statement to the effect of "it is not a dribble when a player bats the ball away from other players."

BillyMac Mon Jan 06, 2020 05:51pm
Batman ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1036554)
Somewhere in the rule book there's a statement to the effect of "it is not a dribble when a player bats the ball away from other players."
Closest I could find:

4.15 COMMENT: It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble. A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions. It is a dribble when a player stands still and bounces the ball. It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once.

bob jenkins Tue Jan 07, 2020 08:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1036555)
Closest I could find:

4.15 COMMENT: It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble. A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions. It is a dribble when a player stands still and bounces the ball. It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once.
That's the one. Does it apply to the OP or to any of the other versions in the thread?

BillyMac Tue Jan 07, 2020 09:55am
Close Enough ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1036557)
Does it apply to the OP or to any of the other versions in the thread?
I believe it does, if not, close enough.

A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions.

BillyMac Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:30am
Nothing Illegal Here ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1036553)
A1 chases down an interrupted dribble with the ball now rolling slowly on the floor. Right before B1 gets to the ball, A1 bats it to cause it to roll away from B1, then bats it again to cause it to roll away from B2, then A1 chases the ball down and picks it up.
A very realistic situation.

Advantage to one team. Disadvantage to the other.

Nothing illegal here (as long as A1 doesn't start a new dribble).

If it's not illegal, it's legal

Play on.

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.l...=0&w=328&h=161

rbruno Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:52am
If he batted the ball with a closed fist it is a punch and is illegal. I think as described it was with an open hand so even though the whole place will go bonkers i think we have nothing. These are the tougher calls to make. Like when the dribbler looses control and taps forward a bit and the whole gym is yelling "travel". We have to learn to not make that call. Officials that do either don't know the rules or don't care because if you do make the travel call everyone is happy.

BillyMac Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:13am
Punch Ball ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbruno (Post 1036560)
If he batted the ball with a closed fist it is a punch and is illegal.
If he's in a crowd and there's a possibility of punching someone in the face, definitely call it.

Otherwise, consult you local listings.

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...tml#post479461

bucky Wed Jan 08, 2020 05:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1036544)
In my situation (above) there were definitely pushes in a deliberate, controlled manner, and it definitely was an advantage for the ball "handler", as he deliberately put his opponents at a definite disadvantage by pushing the ball away from his defenders.

But with all that, the correct call is still a no call.

In this situation, the ball "handler" is not holding the ball. In this situation, by rule, the ball "handler" is not dribbling the ball. By rule, not a travel. By rule, not an illegal dribble. By rule, nothing illegal.

The coaches and fans can complain until the cows come home (I work a lot of games in rural areas, with John Deere tractors in the school parking lots), the correct call is a no call and play on.

Confucius says, "If it's not illegal, it's legal".
A1 dribbles and then holds the ball, establishing his right foot as the pivot foot. A1 then places the ball on the floor with his right hand never losing contact with the ball. A1 then pushes the ball in a controlled fashion, along the floor for ten feet, taking several full steps, and then picks up the ball. This would be legal based on this thread and everyone's opinion about the rules. This would also be a case whereby a pivot foot could be moved from one spot on the floor to another and there is no traveling violation.

Now, once A1 picks up the ball, could A1 pivot on his left foot? Ruling?

BillyMac Wed Jan 08, 2020 06:56pm
Pivot Feet ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1036605)
A1 dribbles and then holds the ball, establishing his right foot as the pivot foot. A1 then places the ball on the floor with his right hand never losing contact with the ball. A1 then pushes the ball in a controlled fashion, along the floor for ten feet, taking several full steps, and then picks up the ball. This would be legal based on this thread and everyone's opinion about the rules. This would also be a case whereby a pivot foot could be moved from one spot on the floor to another and there is no traveling violation.
Of course he can, he not holding the ball. He can move his pivot feet all over the court as long as he's not holding the ball.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1036605)
Now, once A1 picks up the ball, could A1 pivot on his left foot? Ruling?
Good question. We all know that a player can always legally pick up a fumble, but what can he do once he picks up the ball? In bucky's example we know that he can't start a new dribble. But can he pivot? There are situations (jump stops) where neither foot can be a pivot foot, but I don't believe that this example is a jump stop, so I would guess that he probably could pivot.

Raymond Wed Jan 08, 2020 07:30pm
In Bucky's scenario, he has already traveled. Lifted and replanted the pivot foot while in player control.

I'll try to find something to back me up later.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

BillyMac Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:34pm
Holding The Ball ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1036612)
In Bucky's scenario, he has already traveled. Lifted and replanted the pivot foot while in player control.
Travelling doesn't involve player control, it involves holding the ball.

Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed
limits while holding the ball.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1036605)
A1 dribbles and then holds the ball, establishing his right foot as the pivot foot. A1 then places the ball on the floor with his right hand never losing contact with the ball. A1 then pushes the ball in a controlled fashion, along the floor for ten feet, taking several full steps, and then picks up the ball.
In bucky's scenario when did the player both hold the ball and move his pivot at the same time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1036612)
I'll try to find something to back me up later.
With one rare exception, a player must be holding the ball to travel.

Was this is the back of your mind?

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or request a time-out. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

Or was it this:

After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the
ball is released on a pass or try for goal.

And this:

A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball
unintentionally drops or slips from a player’s grasp.

In bucky's case the ball on the floor was not a result of an unintentional accidental fumble, rather it appears to have been a deliberate act.

Not ruling this a fumble creates an interesting option.

Could this be traveling?

Great thread.

so cal lurker Thu Jan 09, 2020 01:18pm
I've never understood why they don't just say that putting the ball on the floor counts as a dribble, even it if doesn't bounce.

Yes it would change the standing up rule, but is that bad? Right now, the referee has to decide if the ball bounced (in which case it was a dribble and legal to stand up) or was "only" placed on the ground (in which case it is travelling to stand up).

BillyMac Thu Jan 09, 2020 01:26pm
Maybe On Opposite Day ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 1036619)
I've never understood why they don't just say that putting the ball on the floor counts as a dribble, even it if doesn't bounce.
Because they've already said the opposite :

4.15 COMMENT: It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble. A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions. It is a dribble when a player stands still and bounces the ball. It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once.

Rich1 Thu Jan 09, 2020 02:04pm
What about this?
 
A player or a team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule.
Neither should play be permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not intended by a rule.

Could you use the above statement from the rules book (it is in the beginning) as a justification to call this a travel?

BillyMac Thu Jan 09, 2020 02:34pm
Intended, Not Intended ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich1 (Post 1036621)
What about this?
Everything is about this (intent and purpose), we always need to keep this in the back of our mind.

The question is that when we're confronted with situations (like this) that are not clearly spelled out in the rulebook, how do we decide if the advantage/disadvantage is intended, of not intended, by the rules?

Not only am I not sure if this is legal, or illegal, I'm not even sure if it should be legal, or illegal.


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