rule question
 

Team A in the back court rolls the ball in bounds. Player A2 bats the ball forward 4-5 times--- Clock starts at the first bat ball. The question for me is are the bat balls legal or illegal? Our interpreter said he thought it was illegal, but would seek further clarification. If it is illegal? what is the call...
Is it a dribble?
Interested in what folks think
stew in Va
thanks in advance

A dribble involves pushing or batting the ball to the floor.

If the ball is rolling on the floor, batting it does not meet the definition of a dribble.

I’m just trying to picture this in my mind to see if any of the actions as described appear to be illegal. I don’t see anything that would prevent that. Play on.


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Case: The ball rolls near A1. A1 begins pushing the ball, with one hand, along the floor all over the court and finally picks the ball up. A1 then begins dribbling. Ruling? Does it matter if the ball was pushed with two hands?

Case: A1 is dribbling ball and then picks up his dribble. A1 then places the ball on the floor and ceases to have contact with the ball. A1 then picks up the ball. Ruling?

Case: A1 is dribbling ball and then picks up his dribble. A1 then places the ball on the floor and ceases to have contact with the ball. A1 then pushes the ball along the floor for 10 feet and then A2 picks the ball up. Ruling?

Case: A1 is dribbling ball and then picks up his dribble. A1 then places the ball on the floor and ceases to have contact with the ball. A1 then pushes the ball along the floor for 10 feet. A1 picks up the ball. Ruling?

It Can Happen ...
 

I had something similar happen to me in a Catholic middle school game fifteen years ago (remember it like it was yesterday). "Ball handler" was batting the ball around on the floor (I can't remember if it was after his dribble had ended) and seemed to gain an advantage in a crowd of opponents, so I sounded my whistle and ruled a travel (or maybe an illegal dribble).

I discussed this with my partner after the game and she convinced me that I was incorrect in my ruling (should have been no call). I spent a long time in the rulebook and casebook (and may have brought it to the Forum) and decided that she was correct, there was no violation.

If you can fumble the ball around trying to catch pass and move several feet without a violation, why can't one do the same with a ball on the floor?

I'd say you're stepped into an area not covered in the rules.

It partially meets the concept of dribbling, but it doesn't quite meet the literal definition...so does that make it an illegal dribble???

If it is a controlled action, I'm going to invoke 2-3 and treat it like a dribble. It is close enough in purpose and principle.

You've Stepped Into The Twilight Zone ...
 

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

But are you sure it's a duck?

It looks just like a dribble, but a dribble in only two dimensions, just left and right, forward and back, no up and down.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.f...=0&w=415&h=196

I reckon you can if it is indeed a fumble, but one can easily push the ball along the floor in a controlled fashion. At least in these cases, the action mentioned was meant to be a controlled manner of pushing the ball.

Seems like a no call however, theoretically, one could easily gain an advantage by such actions.

Player control is defined as holding or dribbling the ball.
This action is neither of those. Therefore, we do not have a player in control of the ball. This player may bat the ball along the floor as much as desired. It is up to an opponent to come put a stop to it.

All this constitutes is a player batting a loose ball.

Not quite. I would not use the word "batting" but rather pushing. Indeed, it may not fit the definition of player control via holding/dribbling, however the player is indeed completely in control of the ball. Perhaps we are not envisioning the same action but the way I meant to describe it, the player is controlling the ball by pushing it along the floor. Now, this is certainly nothing that any of use will experience. If it were to happen, obviously the defense would immediately put a stop to it. Also, by pushing the ball along the floor and guiding it directly, this is not a loose ball as far as application, maybe by definition, but not actual action. The player is controlling the ball.

I am anxious to try it the next time I play some pick-up ball. The debate/argument that ensues will surely be great entertainment.

This seems to answer my question--- for me it's either a dribble or nothing--- If it is a dribble-- Then Player grabs the ball with 2 hands and then dribbles we have a double dribble--- YIKES---I think I'll go with a no call
thanks all
stew in VA

Your definition of player control is not the rules book definition. That is why you are having difficulty with what the call should be.

No Call ...
 

In my situation (above) there were definitely pushes in a deliberate, controlled manner, and it definitely was an advantage for the ball "handler", as he deliberately put his opponents at a definite disadvantage by pushing the ball away from his defenders.

But with all that, the correct call is still a no call.

In this situation, the ball "handler" is not holding the ball. In this situation, by rule, the ball "handler" is not dribbling the ball. By rule, not a travel. By rule, not an illegal dribble. By rule, nothing illegal.

The coaches and fans can complain until the cows come home (I work a lot of games in rural areas, with John Deere tractors in the school parking lots), the correct call is a no call and play on.

Confucius says, "If it's not illegal, it's legal".

I've got nothing here....albeit it's really odd and probably going to get some questions from the defensive team coach and their all-knowing fans :D

While yes, it is "controlled" by the "ball handler" as a deliberate action...I can't say it's an illegal dribble (he hasn't dribbled) ..and we haven't established a pivot foot to meet the requirements for a travel violation...

I can think of one realistic version of this scenario:

A1 chases down an interrupted dribble with the ball now rolling slowly on the floor. Right before B1 gets to the ball, A1 bats it to cause it to roll away from B1, then bats it again to cause it to roll away from B2, then A1 chases the ball down and picks it up.

Somewhere in the rule book there's a statement to the effect of "it is not a dribble when a player bats the ball away from other players."

Batman ...
 

Closest I could find:

4.15 COMMENT: It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble. A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions. It is a dribble when a player stands still and bounces the ball. It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once.

That's the one. Does it apply to the OP or to any of the other versions in the thread?

Close Enough ...
 

I believe it does, if not, close enough.

A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions.

Nothing Illegal Here ...
 

A very realistic situation.

Advantage to one team. Disadvantage to the other.

Nothing illegal here (as long as A1 doesn't start a new dribble).

If it's not illegal, it's legal

Play on.

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.l...=0&w=328&h=161

If he batted the ball with a closed fist it is a punch and is illegal. I think as described it was with an open hand so even though the whole place will go bonkers i think we have nothing. These are the tougher calls to make. Like when the dribbler looses control and taps forward a bit and the whole gym is yelling "travel". We have to learn to not make that call. Officials that do either don't know the rules or don't care because if you do make the travel call everyone is happy.

Punch Ball ...
 

If he's in a crowd and there's a possibility of punching someone in the face, definitely call it.

Otherwise, consult you local listings.

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...tml#post479461

A1 dribbles and then holds the ball, establishing his right foot as the pivot foot. A1 then places the ball on the floor with his right hand never losing contact with the ball. A1 then pushes the ball in a controlled fashion, along the floor for ten feet, taking several full steps, and then picks up the ball. This would be legal based on this thread and everyone's opinion about the rules. This would also be a case whereby a pivot foot could be moved from one spot on the floor to another and there is no traveling violation.

Now, once A1 picks up the ball, could A1 pivot on his left foot? Ruling?

Pivot Feet ...
 

Of course he can, he not holding the ball. He can move his pivot feet all over the court as long as he's not holding the ball.

Good question. We all know that a player can always legally pick up a fumble, but what can he do once he picks up the ball? In bucky's example we know that he can't start a new dribble. But can he pivot? There are situations (jump stops) where neither foot can be a pivot foot, but I don't believe that this example is a jump stop, so I would guess that he probably could pivot.

In Bucky's scenario, he has already traveled. Lifted and replanted the pivot foot while in player control.

I'll try to find something to back me up later.

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Holding The Ball ...
 

Travelling doesn't involve player control, it involves holding the ball.

Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed
limits while holding the ball.

In bucky's scenario when did the player both hold the ball and move his pivot at the same time?

With one rare exception, a player must be holding the ball to travel.

Was this is the back of your mind?

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or request a time-out. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

Or was it this:

After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the
ball is released on a pass or try for goal.

And this:

A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball
unintentionally drops or slips from a player’s grasp.

In bucky's case the ball on the floor was not a result of an unintentional accidental fumble, rather it appears to have been a deliberate act.

Not ruling this a fumble creates an interesting option.

Could this be traveling?

Great thread.

I've never understood why they don't just say that putting the ball on the floor counts as a dribble, even it if doesn't bounce.

Yes it would change the standing up rule, but is that bad? Right now, the referee has to decide if the ball bounced (in which case it was a dribble and legal to stand up) or was "only" placed on the ground (in which case it is travelling to stand up).

Maybe On Opposite Day ...
 

Because they've already said the opposite :

4.15 COMMENT: It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble. A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions. It is a dribble when a player stands still and bounces the ball. It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once.

What about this?
 

A player or a team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule.
Neither should play be permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not intended by a rule.

Could you use the above statement from the rules book (it is in the beginning) as a justification to call this a travel?

Intended, Not Intended ...
 

Everything is about this (intent and purpose), we always need to keep this in the back of our mind.

The question is that when we're confronted with situations (like this) that are not clearly spelled out in the rulebook, how do we decide if the advantage/disadvantage is intended, of not intended, by the rules?

Not only am I not sure if this is legal, or illegal, I'm not even sure if it should be legal, or illegal.

I have a pass 4-31

Once he touched it again, he travelled.

The Infamous Self Pass ...
 

Nice citation.

A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or
rolls the ball to another player.

As the Devil's advocate, I must ask, who is the other player? He seems to be rolling, or batting, the ball to himself, away from the other players.

My interpretation
 

Technically, in the rule definition "pushes the ball to the floor" it doesn't say the ball has to bounce, that's just the way we are accustomed to seeing it. Whether the player in control of the ball pushes (bounces) throws, drops (not fumbles), places or rolls the ball; the fact is, the ball has intentionally gone from the player's hand(s) to the floor. Prior to dribbling, if A1 sets the ball on the floor, adjusts his waist band, picks up the ball and dribbles he has violated. If, instead of picking up the ball, he smacks the ball causing it to start bouncing and continues to dribble he has not violated. If A1 has used his dribble and is now trapped, he cannot roll the ball between the legs of the opponent, run around the trap and be the first to touch the ball just as he cannot throw the ball over the opponents to the floor and be the first to touch the ball.

Legal. A1 is permitted to touch the ball to the floor if he is holding the ball.

Illegal. A1 is no longer holding the ball. He has released (pushed) the ball to the floor a second time and is the first to touch it. Violation. The rest is irrelevant IMO.

Not A Dribble ... ...
 

As the Devil's advocate, I most point out that the casebook clearly says otherwise:

4.15 COMMENT: It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble. A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions. It is a dribble when a player stands still and bounces the ball. It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once.

Uh, yeah. That was my point. Changing that would make things a lot more simple.

(but your quote is not accurate, as it involves the player still holding the ball rather than releasing it; the best example of why putting the ball on the ground is not a dribble is that it is a travel to put it down and then stand up and pick it up--if putting it down was a dribble, that play would not be a travel)

It Was A Dark And Stormy Night ...
 

Nice catch.

So we're back to this:

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or request a time-out. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.w...=0&w=263&h=167

I may have to create a new thread or just let this go. Too many are interpreting my case incorrectly. Some are suggesting the ball is released and others are referring to cases that do not apply.

Case: A1 dribbles and then holds the ball, establishing his right foot as the pivot foot. A1 then places the ball on the floor with his right hand never losing contact with the ball. A1 then pushes/scoots/moves/displaces the ball in a controlled fashion, along the floor for ten feet, taking several full steps, and then picks up the ball. In this process, A1 was not dribbling. This would be legal based on this thread and everyone's opinion about the rules. This would also be a case whereby a pivot foot could be moved from one spot on the floor to another and there is no traveling violation.

Now, once A1 picks up the ball, could A1 pivot on his left foot? Ruling?

I deem that A1 is still holding the ball in your play since he never releases it. Therefore, when his pivot foot comes up and back down, he has traveled.

Since not every possible situation is covered in the rule and case books, I'm applying the spirit of the rule which is illustrated in Billy's case play 4.45.5 Sit B. In your play the player lifted and re-planted his pivot foot while still in possession of the ball. To me your play is no different in theory and application than a player tossing the ball up in the air (not a try/not a fumble) and taking steps with both feet and catching the ball in a new spot.

Tossing The Ball Into The Air ...
 

Nice example.

This involves a fumble (muff):

4.44 SITUATION A: A1 attempts to catch the ball while running rapidly. A1 muffs the ball, but succeeds in securing it before it strikes the floor. A1 then begins a dribble, taking several steps between the time the ball was first touched until it was caught. RULING: There has been no violation provided A1, after catching the ball, released the ball to start the dribble before the pivot foot was lifted from the floor. (4-15)

This doesn't involve a fumble:

4.44.3 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Traveling violation since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal. (9-4)

Which is an illegal dribble.

The forum consensus seems to be that the bats are legal and do not constitute dribbles. I agree with that conclusion.

So now. . . when does the 10-second backcourt count start?

Controls ...
 

Start the ten second count when the offense controls (not just touches) the ball (holding or dribbling).

Bucky, people are not necessarily interpreting the situation incorrectly. Your description doesn't make sense. Even though A1 doesn't lose contact with the ball, once A1 starts pushing/scooting/moving/displacing the ball in a controlled fashion, he is either still holding the ball or he isn't. It can't be both. If he is still holding the ball while taking steps, it is a travel. Since you said he eventually picked up the ball, then the ball had to have been "released" even though he never lost contact. Again, it can't be both. If the ball is not being held, then it has been released. Releasing (by pushing) the ball to the floor (which A1 did) fits the definition of a dribble. Since A1 dribbled prior, IMO A1 has double dribbled.