Fighting and Flagrant

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

What's the difference?

Just a guess, maybe this state association has more serious consequences for "fighting" versus a "regular" flagrant foul.

Again, just a guess.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Just a guess, maybe this state association has more serious consequences for "fighting" versus a "regular" flagrant foul.

Again, just a guess.

Well then that is up to the state, but by rule, there is no difference. But either way you are supported for a Flagrant Act.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well then that is up to the state, but by rule, there is no difference. But either way you are supported for a Flagrant Act.

All fighting situations are flagrant acts, but all flagrant acts are not fighting.

4-18 Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live.
Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as:
ART. 1 An attempt to strike, punch or kick by using a fist, hands, arms,
legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made.
ART. 2 An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act
that causes a person to retaliate by fighting.

4-19-4: A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent
or savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays
unacceptable conduct. It may or may not be intentional. If personal, it
involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as: striking, kicking and
kneeing. If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any
time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct. Fighting is
a flagrant act.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

All fighting situations are flagrant acts, but all flagrant acts are not fighting.

I am aware of all of this. The result is the same in the game, the player or players cannot play. If your state needs a classification, then put it in the appropriate report but during the game you are not suspending anyone more than the rest of the game you are playing.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The result is the same in the game, the player or players cannot play.

Agree.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If your state needs a classification, then put it in the appropriate report but during the game you are not suspending anyone more than the rest of the game you are playing.

Correct. Based on the "language" in the official's report, it is the state, not the officials, that may charge additional penalties subsequent to the game.

But again, I was just guessing about the reason for the distinction between flagrant and fighting, as asked in the original post.

Or maybe it was a written test question issue?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Correct. Based on the "language" in the official's report, it is the state, not the officials, that may charge additional penalties subsequent to the game.

But again, I was just guessing about the reason for the distinction between flagrant and fighting, as asked in the original post.

Or maybe it was a written test question issue?

OK, let them worry about that. This is often the place to figure out every issue possible if the person never asks that part.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by The_Rookie

In order to classify an act as fighting do you need at least 2 participants?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

What's the difference? (a serious question for the self-described rookie).

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... if the person never asks that part.

Good point. Whatever happened to The_Rookie?

Does he plan to return to the Forum with a followup post?

Maybe his computer crashed?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Just a guess, maybe this state association has more serious consequences for "fighting" versus a "regular" flagrant foul.

Again, just a guess.

This is a very valid observation. NFHS Rules do not automatically classify Taunting as a FTF but it is at least a TF. The MichiganHSAA has for years adopted a MichiganHSAA rule that all Taunting Fouls as FTFs. While the OhioHSAA has no such additional State adoption. Years ago, in a MichiganHSAA game, I had a player commit, what would would haven been a non-FTF Taunting Foul in OhioHSAA or FloridaHSAA but had to charge it as a FTF. The Player's HC was not happy and neither was the MichiganHSAA administrator who questioned my FTF after reading my Game Report, even he did not know the MichiganHSAA rule.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

NFHS Rules do not automatically classify Taunting as a FTF but it is at least a TF.

4-18: Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live.
Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as:
ART. 1 An attempt to strike, punch or kick by using a fist, hands, arms,
legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made.
ART. 2 An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act
that causes a person to retaliate by fighting.

Sidebar question: "Retaliate by fighting". Must the retaliation be physical, or can it be a retaliatory taunt, to be considered part of a fight?

10-4-6 A player shall not: Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to,
acts or conduct such as:
a. Disrespectfully addressing or contacting an official or gesturing in
such a manner as to indicate resentment.
b. Using profane or inappropriate language or obscene gestures.
c. Baiting or taunting an opponent.
NOTE: The NFHS disapproves of any form of taunting which is intended
or designed to embarrass, ridicule or demean others under any
circumstances.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. is correct (for a change), by NFHS rule, the taunt only becomes part of a fight if there is retaliation.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

... even he did not know the MichiganHSAA rule.

I'm sure that some states are better than others, but many states that add "rules" not in the NFHS rulebook fail to understand the ramifications and unintended consequences of such additions.