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-   -   Fighting and Flagrant (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/104825-fighting-flagrant.html)

The_Rookie Thu Nov 28, 2019 02:51pm

Fighting and Flagrant
 
In order to classify an act as fighting do you need at least 2 participants?

For example, we know that kicking an opponent is considered an act of fighting. But what if A1 kicks B1 after both go to floor for loose ball and B1 does not react in anyway...
Is this just considered a Flagrant Foul because of the kick and not classified as fighting?

How does this impact the throw in location?

NFHS rule set.

Thanks!

BillyMac Thu Nov 28, 2019 03:34pm

I'd Rather Fight Than Switch ...
 
4-18 Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live.
Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as:
ART. 1 An attempt to strike, punch or kick by using a fist, hands, arms,
legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made.
ART. 2 An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act
that causes a person to retaliate by fighting.


One player can fight (Article 1).

Nevadaref Thu Nov 28, 2019 06:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Rookie (Post 1035566)
In order to classify an act as fighting do you need at least 2 participants?

For example, we know that kicking an opponent is considered an act of fighting. But what if A1 kicks B1 after both go to floor for loose ball and B1 does not react in anyway...
Is this just considered a Flagrant Foul because of the kick and not classified as fighting?

How does this impact the throw in location?

NFHS rule set.

Thanks!

Is the Thanksgiving gathering turning combative? 🤭

crosscountry55 Thu Nov 28, 2019 09:07pm

Fighting and Flagrant
 
Happened to me in a game three years ago. Common foul at the division line, both players spilled. The foulee got mad, attempted to kick the fouler while both were on the floor. He didnít actually make contact, and the person he tried to kick didnít react at all.

Didnít matter. I DQíd him all the same. Flagrant technical for fighting (dead ball foul).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

bob jenkins Thu Nov 28, 2019 09:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Rookie (Post 1035566)
Is this just considered a Flagrant Foul because of the kick and not classified as fighting?

What's the difference? (a serious question for the self-described rookie).

ilyazhito Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:17pm

It is classified as fighting. Any attempt to strike another person in a combative manner is considered fighting, whether it makes contact or not.

If one person attempts to strike another without a reaction from the other person, it is a fight, and the person attempting to strike another would be ejected. This is how, by rule, you can have a fight with only one person.

BillyMac Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:01am

Just A Guess ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1035570)
What's the difference?

Just a guess, maybe this state association has more serious consequences for "fighting" versus a "regular" flagrant foul.

Again, just a guess.

JRutledge Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1035574)
Just a guess, maybe this state association has more serious consequences for "fighting" versus a "regular" flagrant foul.

Again, just a guess.

Well then that is up to the state, but by rule, there is no difference. But either way you are supported for a Flagrant Act.

Peace

BillyMac Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:47am

Is This A True Statement ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1035578)
Well then that is up to the state, but by rule, there is no difference. But either way you are supported for a Flagrant Act.

All fighting situations are flagrant acts, but all flagrant acts are not fighting.

4-18 Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live.
Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as:
ART. 1 An attempt to strike, punch or kick by using a fist, hands, arms,
legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made.
ART. 2 An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act
that causes a person to retaliate by fighting.

4-19-4: A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent
or savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays
unacceptable conduct. It may or may not be intentional. If personal, it
involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as: striking, kicking and
kneeing. If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any
time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct. Fighting is
a flagrant act.

JRutledge Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1035580)
All fighting situations are flagrant acts, but all flagrant acts are not fighting.

I am aware of all of this. The result is the same in the game, the player or players cannot play. If your state needs a classification, then put it in the appropriate report but during the game you are not suspending anyone more than the rest of the game you are playing.

Peace

BillyMac Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:25pm

Spitballing ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1035581)
The result is the same in the game, the player or players cannot play.

Agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1035581)
If your state needs a classification, then put it in the appropriate report but during the game you are not suspending anyone more than the rest of the game you are playing.

Correct. Based on the "language" in the official's report, it is the state, not the officials, that may charge additional penalties subsequent to the game.

But again, I was just guessing about the reason for the distinction between flagrant and fighting, as asked in the original post.

Or maybe it was a written test question issue?

JRutledge Sat Nov 30, 2019 03:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1035583)

Correct. Based on the "language" in the official's report, it is the state, not the officials, that may charge additional penalties subsequent to the game.

But again, I was just guessing about the reason for the distinction between flagrant and fighting, as asked in the original post.

Or maybe it was a written test question issue?

OK, let them worry about that. This is often the place to figure out every issue possible if the person never asks that part.

Peace

BillyMac Sat Nov 30, 2019 04:19pm

Was It Dennis Quaid ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Rookie (Post 1035566)
In order to classify an act as fighting do you need at least 2 participants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1035570)
What's the difference? (a serious question for the self-described rookie).

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1035584)
... if the person never asks that part.

Good point. Whatever happened to The_Rookie?

Does he plan to return to the Forum with a followup post?

Maybe his computer crashed?

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.R...=0&w=300&h=300

JRutledge Sat Nov 30, 2019 04:41pm

Maybe he has a life. After all, this is a holiday weekend.

Peace

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1035574)
Just a guess, maybe this state association has more serious consequences for "fighting" versus a "regular" flagrant foul.

Again, just a guess.



This is a very valid observation. NFHS Rules do not automatically classify Taunting as a FTF but it is at least a TF. The MichiganHSAA has for years adopted a MichiganHSAA rule that all Taunting Fouls as FTFs. While the OhioHSAA has no such additional State adoption. Years ago, in a MichiganHSAA game, I had a player commit, what would would haven been a non-FTF Taunting Foul in OhioHSAA or FloridaHSAA but had to charge it as a FTF. The Player's HC was not happy and neither was the MichiganHSAA administrator who questioned my FTF after reading my Game Report, even he did not know the MichiganHSAA rule.

MTD, Sr.


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