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Old Thu Nov 07, 2019, 07:58am
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Deflected Throw-In: 2 or 3 Points?

Tipped Throw-In Pass

SITUATION: A1's throw-in is tipped by B1 standing outside the arc and the throw passes through A's basket. Are two or three points awarded?

Option A, 2 POINTS: 5-2-1, "A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team's own ...arc counts three points." But since the thrown ball did not originate "from the field" it cannot count for three points and Team A scores two points two points.

Option B, 3 POINTS: Just as 5.2.1D (A1's throw-in from near division line deflected by defender B1 standing at the A's FT line goes through A's basket...score two points for team A), by extension, three points is scored if B1 is standing outside the three-point arc.

By rule, which is correct? Or do we have an rules anomaly here?

(Sorry for not embedding video clip . . . looked real cruddy when I tried to)
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Last edited by Freddy; Thu Nov 07, 2019 at 08:15am.
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Old Thu Nov 07, 2019, 08:29am
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Two points.
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Old Thu Nov 07, 2019, 11:26am
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For The Good Of The Cause ...

5.2.1 SITUATION B: With 2:45 left in the second quarter, B1 has the ball on the left wing in Team B's frontcourt, standing behind the three-point arc. B5 makes a backdoor cut toward the basket. B1 passes the ball toward the ring and B5 leaps for the potential "alley-oop" dunk. The ball, however, enters and passes through the goal directly from B1's pass and is not touched by B5. RULING: Score three points for Team B. A ball that is thrown into a team's own goal from behind the three-point arc scores three points, regardless of whether the thrown ball was an actual try for goal.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-
point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

5.2.1 SITUATION D: Following the free throws for a technical foul, A1 makes a throw-in from out of bounds at the division line opposite the table. The throw-in pass is deflected at As free-throw line by: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and it then goes directly through As basket. RULING: Score two points for Team A in both (a) and (b). The throw-in ended when the ball was touched by an inbounds player and the live ball subsequently passed through the basket. The fact it was not a tap or a try for goal does not affect the scoring of two points. (4-41-4; 5-2-1)

5-2-1: A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player
who is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three
points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official,
or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose
basket the ball is thrown.

4-41-4: The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain
the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when
the ball becomes dead.
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Old Thu Nov 07, 2019, 04:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
4-41-4: The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain
the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when
the ball becomes dead.
[/I]

And the case that goes with that:

Quote:
4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket.
RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)
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Old Sat Nov 09, 2019, 08:54am
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5-2-1, "A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team's own ...arc counts three points."

4-41-4: The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain
the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when
the ball becomes dead.

And the case that goes with that:

4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket.

RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

Now re-read the rule:

"A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team's own ...arc counts three points."

So yes, the 3-point try had ended. But it is still a thrown ball from the field outside the 3-point arc. The case here actually contradicts the rule. I agree that the intent of the rule is for this play to be a 2-point basket, but that's not what it says. The rule needs to be clarified to match the case play.
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Old Sat Nov 09, 2019, 12:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
5-2-1, "A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team's own ...arc counts three points." . . .

Now re-read the rule:
"A successful try, tap [B]or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team's own ...arc counts three points."

So yes, the 3-point try had ended. NO IT DIDN'T . . . IT WASN'T A TRY, IT WAS A THROW-IN PASS. But it is still a thrown ball from the field outside the 3-point arc NO IT WASN'T . . . IT WAS THROWN FROM OUT-OF-BOUNDS, NOT "FROM THE FIELD." The case here actually contradicts the rule. I DON'T THINK IT DOES.
I was just hoping the casebook citation would have included the defender standing outside the arc also.
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Old Sat Nov 09, 2019, 06:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
So yes, the 3-point try had ended. But it is still a thrown ball from the field outside the 3-point arc. The case here actually contradicts the rule. I agree that the intent of the rule is for this play to be a 2-point basket, but that's not what it says. The rule needs to be clarified to match the case play.
Agree. I'm probably ruling three points on this video (after a discussion with my partner and the head coaches). If the ball falls below ring level that may be another story.

Keep in mind that when the three point arc was originally drawn on the court, it had to be a try for three points (this has since changed), an alley oop pass from behind the arc that accidentally went in was only two points back then. Some officials may still have that in the back of their head.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Nov 09, 2019 at 06:24pm.
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Old Sat Nov 09, 2019, 08:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
5-2-1, "A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team's own ...arc counts three points."
A throw-in is not this.

Maybe I am misunderstanding the point.
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Old Sun Nov 10, 2019, 04:08am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
A throw-in is not this.

Maybe I am misunderstanding the point.
This is correct. Any introduction of 4-41-4 and a try into this discussion is incorrect. The fact that the throw did not come from the field is the key here. I'm only wondering why they didn't offer the following option in the casebook situation

5.2.1 SITUATION X: Following the free throws for a technical foul, A1 makes a throw-in from out of bounds at the division line opposite the table. The throw-in pass is deflected outside A's three-point arc by: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and it then goes directly through As basket. RULING: Score two points for Team A in both (a) and (b). The throw-in ended when the ball was touched by an inbounds player and the live ball subsequently passed through the basket. The fact it was not a tap or a try for goal does not affect the scoring of two points. (5-2-1)
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Old Sun Nov 10, 2019, 04:13am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
A throw-in is not this.

Maybe I am misunderstanding the point.
This is correct. Any introduction of 4-41-4 and a try into this discussion is incorrect. The very mention of it in casebook reference 5.2.1C is wrong. The fact that the throw did not come from the field is the key here. I'd hope they'd offer the following option in the casebook:

5.2.1 SITUATION X: Following the free throws for a technical foul, A1 makes a throw-in from out of bounds at the division line opposite the table. The throw-in pass is deflected outside A's three-point arc by: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and it then goes directly through As basket. RULING: Score two points for Team A in both (a) and (b). The throw-in was not a throw from the field. The fact it was not a tap or a try for goal does not affect the scoring of two points. (5-2-1)
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Old Sun Nov 10, 2019, 08:12am
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Thrown Ball ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
A throw-in is not this.
Agree. And we all know that one can't score directly from a throwin, but the throwin ended when the defensive player touched it.

So as soon as the defensive player touches the throwin the throwin is over, so how would one now describe the "status" of the ball from that point? Maybe a "thrown ball"? Maybe not?
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Old Sun Nov 10, 2019, 02:44pm
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Buzzer ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
we all know that one can't score directly from a throwin, but the throwin ended when the defensive player touched it ...
As a side note, of course we all realize that if a buzzer ending the period sounds between the defensive touch and before the ball enters the basket that the goal does not count because it's not a try.
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Old Sun Nov 10, 2019, 04:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
A throw-in is not this.

Maybe I am misunderstanding the point.
You missed the last portion of my post. I was referring specifically to a 3-point try. Sorry if it should've been clearer.
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