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Old Mon Jun 03, 2019, 11:20am
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Travel after shooting foul

https://ibb.co/qkXJkT4

Thought there was an interesting play in the finals last night with 6:38 to go in the 4th quarter. Leonard drives to the basket and is fouled and makes the shot. In the replay it shows that his foot returned to the floor before he released the ball.

Has anyone had this play or have a video of this sequence? I think that this series of events happens more then we adjudicate.

I know that I have not made this call but maybe something to watch out for in the future. Tried to capture a picture of the end of the play

Note: If for some reason this is not a travel in the NBA as I am not as familiar with that rule set would like to focus on the NCAA and NFHS rulings in this situation for discussion purposes.

Last edited by sdoebler; Mon Jun 03, 2019 at 11:24am. Reason: Picture
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Old Mon Jun 03, 2019, 12:27pm
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By rule, the foul would be considered in the act of shooting, so Kawhi Leonard would entitled to free throws for the foul, but the score would be cancelled, because he travelled. However, officials in a real game would be more likely to conclude that the foul caused the travelling, so the shot would count, and Kawhi would shoot 1 free throw.
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Old Mon Jun 03, 2019, 01:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
https://ibb.co/qkXJkT4

Thought there was an interesting play in the finals last night with 6:38 to go in the 4th quarter. Leonard drives to the basket and is fouled and makes the shot. In the replay it shows that his foot returned to the floor before he released the ball.

Has anyone had this play or have a video of this sequence? I think that this series of events happens more then we adjudicate.

I know that I have not made this call but maybe something to watch out for in the future. Tried to capture a picture of the end of the play

Note: If for some reason this is not a travel in the NBA as I am not as familiar with that rule set would like to focus on the NCAA and NFHS rulings in this situation for discussion purposes.

If it is obvious, cancel the basket and award 2 free throws. If you have to split hairs or need replay to detect the travel, count the basket and award 1 free throw.
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Old Mon Jun 03, 2019, 01:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
By rule, the foul would be considered in the act of shooting, so Kawhi Leonard would entitled to free throws for the foul, but the score would be cancelled, because he travelled. However, officials in a real game would be more likely to conclude that the foul caused the travelling, so the shot would count, and Kawhi would shoot 1 free throw.
We all officiate "real games", so are you advocating this adjudication for those of us who are working NCAA and NFHS games?
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Old Mon Jun 03, 2019, 01:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
If it is obvious, cancel the basket and award 2 free throws. If you have to split hairs or need replay to detect the travel, count the basket and award 1 free throw.
Have you ever made the ruling? Do you have a video of this happening?
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Old Mon Jun 03, 2019, 01:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
... officials in a real game would be more likely to conclude that the foul caused the travelling, so the shot would count, and Kawhi would shoot 1 free throw.
What? This is totally illogical. So if a ball handler/shooter is fouled and then travels we ignore the travel because the foul "caused" the travel?

Just how many extra steps are you going to give the fouled ball handler/shooter?

Are you also going to allow the fouled ball handler/shooter a few illegal (double) dribbles because the foul "caused" the illegal (double) dribble?
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Old Mon Jun 03, 2019, 01:52pm
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The Ball Subsequently Goes In ...

In almost forty years, I've cancelled baskets many times because the ball handler/shooter traveled after being fouled with the ball subsequently going in.
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Old Mon Jun 03, 2019, 03:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
However, officials in a real game would be more likely to conclude that the foul caused the travelling, so the shot would count, and Kawhi would shoot 1 free throw.
I disagree with who is more inclined to do something. Many officials do not properly award shots in these situations often. But if a player travels, I would still award shots, I just might not give them the basket on the foul. Again, as stated by Raymond, if I have to guess about if an actual took place, I would do everything I can to give a basket if the ball goes in, but it has to be close. If clearly the foul caused them not to release or to stay under control some control, they are not getting an unlimited time to complete the move to the basket.

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Old Mon Jun 03, 2019, 04:30pm
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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
What? This is totally illogical. So if a ball handler/shooter is fouled and then travels we ignore the travel because the foul "caused" the travel?

Just how many extra steps are you going to give the fouled ball handler/shooter?

Are you also going to allow the fouled ball handler/shooter a few illegal (double) dribbles because the foul "caused" the illegal (double) dribble?
Yep, he writes some strange things. Typical of a less-experienced official.
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Old Mon Jun 03, 2019, 06:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
By rule, the foul would be considered in the act of shooting, so Kawhi Leonard would entitled to free throws for the foul, but the score would be cancelled, because he travelled. However, officials in a real game would be more likely to conclude that the foul caused the travelling, so the shot would count, and Kawhi would shoot 1 free throw.
I've heard many times from veteran officials about the difference between the test and real life, and how they don't apply the rules in a real game in the manner that the test specifies as the correct way.

For the record, I do not agree with that mindset. I would cancel the score and award two shots, unless the foul directly contributed to the travel (the shooter was pushed and lost his balance, causing him to travel).
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Old Tue Jun 04, 2019, 07:02am
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Continuation ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
I've heard many times from veteran officials about the difference between the test and real life, and how they don't apply the rules in a real game in the manner that the test specifies as the correct way.
This situation would not be one of those times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
... unless the foul directly contributed to the travel (the shooter was pushed and lost his balance, causing him to travel).
And you would be stone cold wrong, on a written test, and in a real game.

Just how many extra steps are you going to give the fouled ball handler/shooter?

Continuation does not allow for extra steps. If the ball handler/shooter was in the act of shooting before the foul occurred, the foul does not cause the ball to become dead immediately, however, the travel violation does cause the ball to become dead immediately and no goal can be scored.

There is no such thing as a continuation rule that allows a dead ball delay in a travel violation.

In this case a dead ball going through the basket doesn't count as two points.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Jun 04, 2019 at 07:18am.
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Old Tue Jun 04, 2019, 07:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
I've heard many times from veteran officials about the difference between the test and real life, and how they don't apply the rules in a real game in the manner that the test specifies as the correct way.
Don't you officiate real games? Don't you work real games with veteran officials? I'm confounded by your continual use of the phrase "real games". The play in question happened in a "real game", it's not a test question. And plays like this are going to happen in your real games eventually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
For the record, I do not agree with that mindset. I would cancel the score and award two shots, unless the foul directly contributed to the travel (the shooter was pushed and lost his balance, causing him to travel).
So A1 jumps for a shot, B1 swipes down and hits both of A1's arms, A1 returns to the court landing on both feet, then A1 releases the ball and it goes in the basket. You're counting that basket because the foul caused the travel?

DO NOT COMPLICATE THINGS: If it is obvious, cancel the basket and award 2 free throws. If you have to split hairs or need replay to detect the travel, count the basket and award 1 free throw.

Why can't it be as simple as that?
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Last edited by Raymond; Tue Jun 04, 2019 at 02:12pm.
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Old Tue Jun 04, 2019, 11:28am
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I am reporting what other people have said amongst themselves and told me. That does not mean that I support what is being said. I would officiate a game calling the plays the same way that they are supposed to be called per the rulebook and casebook/ Approved Rulings. If obvious that a foul and travel, I enforce both (award free throws and take away the score). If not, I count the goal, and ignore the maybe-travel while awarding one free throw.
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Old Tue Jun 04, 2019, 12:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
I am reporting what other people have said amongst themselves and told me. That does not mean that I support what is being said.
Well not sure what others that are not in this discussion have to do with this topic brought up by a specific individual? It does not matter to many of us what someone in your little area might have done if you clearly do not agree with that position. I say that because I personally have never heard anyone make such a suggestion. It does not mean there are not people that feel that way, but it has nothing to do with the specific issue we are talking about here. People have all kinds of ideas about stuff that I would never share here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
I would officiate a game calling the plays the same way that they are supposed to be called per the rulebook and casebook/ Approved Rulings. If obvious that a foul and travel, I enforce both (award free throws and take away the score). If not, I count the goal, and ignore the maybe-travel while awarding one free throw.
That is where you should have left it. It does not help us or anyone bringing up unrelated people to the discussion when those people cannot speak for themselves. We trust your opinion enough as it is.

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Old Tue Jun 04, 2019, 02:38pm
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I recall the play quite vividly and discussed it with my dad. We rewound it and watched in slo mo of course. This happens most frequently, IMO, in the NBA. I never understand why the officials do not even bother to look at each other with some doubt. They just score it and nobody says a word, not even the defense. Sure, if it is not obvious I can understand but many times it is obvious. I have canceled a basket in this situation maybe 5 times in my career, usually only at the lower levels. Counting rec leagues, maybe 100 times, lol.
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Last edited by bucky; Tue Jun 04, 2019 at 04:11pm.
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