The Official Forum

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)
-   Basketball (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/)
-   -   Travel after shooting foul (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/104615-travel-after-shooting-foul.html)

sdoebler Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:20am

Travel after shooting foul
 
https://ibb.co/qkXJkT4

Thought there was an interesting play in the finals last night with 6:38 to go in the 4th quarter. Leonard drives to the basket and is fouled and makes the shot. In the replay it shows that his foot returned to the floor before he released the ball.

Has anyone had this play or have a video of this sequence? I think that this series of events happens more then we adjudicate.

I know that I have not made this call but maybe something to watch out for in the future. Tried to capture a picture of the end of the play

Note: If for some reason this is not a travel in the NBA as I am not as familiar with that rule set would like to focus on the NCAA and NFHS rulings in this situation for discussion purposes.

ilyazhito Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:27pm

By rule, the foul would be considered in the act of shooting, so Kawhi Leonard would entitled to free throws for the foul, but the score would be cancelled, because he travelled. However, officials in a real game would be more likely to conclude that the foul caused the travelling, so the shot would count, and Kawhi would shoot 1 free throw.

Raymond Mon Jun 03, 2019 01:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdoebler (Post 1033166)
https://ibb.co/qkXJkT4

Thought there was an interesting play in the finals last night with 6:38 to go in the 4th quarter. Leonard drives to the basket and is fouled and makes the shot. In the replay it shows that his foot returned to the floor before he released the ball.

Has anyone had this play or have a video of this sequence? I think that this series of events happens more then we adjudicate.

I know that I have not made this call but maybe something to watch out for in the future. Tried to capture a picture of the end of the play

Note: If for some reason this is not a travel in the NBA as I am not as familiar with that rule set would like to focus on the NCAA and NFHS rulings in this situation for discussion purposes.


If it is obvious, cancel the basket and award 2 free throws. If you have to split hairs or need replay to detect the travel, count the basket and award 1 free throw.

Raymond Mon Jun 03, 2019 01:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1033167)
By rule, the foul would be considered in the act of shooting, so Kawhi Leonard would entitled to free throws for the foul, but the score would be cancelled, because he travelled. However, officials in a real game would be more likely to conclude that the foul caused the travelling, so the shot would count, and Kawhi would shoot 1 free throw.

We all officiate "real games", so are you advocating this adjudication for those of us who are working NCAA and NFHS games?

sdoebler Mon Jun 03, 2019 01:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1033168)
If it is obvious, cancel the basket and award 2 free throws. If you have to split hairs or need replay to detect the travel, count the basket and award 1 free throw.

Have you ever made the ruling? Do you have a video of this happening?

BillyMac Mon Jun 03, 2019 01:48pm

Step Up ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1033167)
... officials in a real game would be more likely to conclude that the foul caused the travelling, so the shot would count, and Kawhi would shoot 1 free throw.

What? This is totally illogical. So if a ball handler/shooter is fouled and then travels we ignore the travel because the foul "caused" the travel?

Just how many extra steps are you going to give the fouled ball handler/shooter?

Are you also going to allow the fouled ball handler/shooter a few illegal (double) dribbles because the foul "caused" the illegal (double) dribble?

BillyMac Mon Jun 03, 2019 01:52pm

The Ball Subsequently Goes In ...
 
In almost forty years, I've cancelled baskets many times because the ball handler/shooter traveled after being fouled with the ball subsequently going in.

JRutledge Mon Jun 03, 2019 03:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1033167)
However, officials in a real game would be more likely to conclude that the foul caused the travelling, so the shot would count, and Kawhi would shoot 1 free throw.

I disagree with who is more inclined to do something. Many officials do not properly award shots in these situations often. But if a player travels, I would still award shots, I just might not give them the basket on the foul. Again, as stated by Raymond, if I have to guess about if an actual took place, I would do everything I can to give a basket if the ball goes in, but it has to be close. If clearly the foul caused them not to release or to stay under control some control, they are not getting an unlimited time to complete the move to the basket.

Peace

Nevadaref Mon Jun 03, 2019 04:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1033172)
What? This is totally illogical. So if a ball handler/shooter is fouled and then travels we ignore the travel because the foul "caused" the travel?

Just how many extra steps are you going to give the fouled ball handler/shooter?

Are you also going to allow the fouled ball handler/shooter a few illegal (double) dribbles because the foul "caused" the illegal (double) dribble?

Yep, he writes some strange things. Typical of a less-experienced official.

ilyazhito Mon Jun 03, 2019 06:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1033167)
By rule, the foul would be considered in the act of shooting, so Kawhi Leonard would entitled to free throws for the foul, but the score would be cancelled, because he travelled. However, officials in a real game would be more likely to conclude that the foul caused the travelling, so the shot would count, and Kawhi would shoot 1 free throw.

I've heard many times from veteran officials about the difference between the test and real life, and how they don't apply the rules in a real game in the manner that the test specifies as the correct way.

For the record, I do not agree with that mindset. I would cancel the score and award two shots, unless the foul directly contributed to the travel (the shooter was pushed and lost his balance, causing him to travel).

BillyMac Tue Jun 04, 2019 07:02am

Continuation ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1033176)
I've heard many times from veteran officials about the difference between the test and real life, and how they don't apply the rules in a real game in the manner that the test specifies as the correct way.

This situation would not be one of those times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1033176)
... unless the foul directly contributed to the travel (the shooter was pushed and lost his balance, causing him to travel).

And you would be stone cold wrong, on a written test, and in a real game.

Just how many extra steps are you going to give the fouled ball handler/shooter?

Continuation does not allow for extra steps. If the ball handler/shooter was in the act of shooting before the foul occurred, the foul does not cause the ball to become dead immediately, however, the travel violation does cause the ball to become dead immediately and no goal can be scored.

There is no such thing as a continuation rule that allows a dead ball delay in a travel violation.

In this case a dead ball going through the basket doesn't count as two points.

Raymond Tue Jun 04, 2019 07:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1033176)
I've heard many times from veteran officials about the difference between the test and real life, and how they don't apply the rules in a real game in the manner that the test specifies as the correct way.

Don't you officiate real games? Don't you work real games with veteran officials? I'm confounded by your continual use of the phrase "real games". The play in question happened in a "real game", it's not a test question. And plays like this are going to happen in your real games eventually.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1033176)
For the record, I do not agree with that mindset. I would cancel the score and award two shots, unless the foul directly contributed to the travel (the shooter was pushed and lost his balance, causing him to travel).

So A1 jumps for a shot, B1 swipes down and hits both of A1's arms, A1 returns to the court landing on both feet, then A1 releases the ball and it goes in the basket. You're counting that basket because the foul caused the travel?

DO NOT COMPLICATE THINGS: If it is obvious, cancel the basket and award 2 free throws. If you have to split hairs or need replay to detect the travel, count the basket and award 1 free throw.

Why can't it be as simple as that?

ilyazhito Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:28am

I am reporting what other people have said amongst themselves and told me. That does not mean that I support what is being said. I would officiate a game calling the plays the same way that they are supposed to be called per the rulebook and casebook/ Approved Rulings. If obvious that a foul and travel, I enforce both (award free throws and take away the score). If not, I count the goal, and ignore the maybe-travel while awarding one free throw.

JRutledge Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1033180)
I am reporting what other people have said amongst themselves and told me. That does not mean that I support what is being said.

Well not sure what others that are not in this discussion have to do with this topic brought up by a specific individual? It does not matter to many of us what someone in your little area might have done if you clearly do not agree with that position. I say that because I personally have never heard anyone make such a suggestion. It does not mean there are not people that feel that way, but it has nothing to do with the specific issue we are talking about here. People have all kinds of ideas about stuff that I would never share here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1033180)
I would officiate a game calling the plays the same way that they are supposed to be called per the rulebook and casebook/ Approved Rulings. If obvious that a foul and travel, I enforce both (award free throws and take away the score). If not, I count the goal, and ignore the maybe-travel while awarding one free throw.

That is where you should have left it. It does not help us or anyone bringing up unrelated people to the discussion when those people cannot speak for themselves. We trust your opinion enough as it is.

Peace

bucky Tue Jun 04, 2019 02:38pm

I recall the play quite vividly and discussed it with my dad. We rewound it and watched in slo mo of course. This happens most frequently, IMO, in the NBA. I never understand why the officials do not even bother to look at each other with some doubt. They just score it and nobody says a word, not even the defense. Sure, if it is not obvious I can understand but many times it is obvious. I have canceled a basket in this situation maybe 5 times in my career, usually only at the lower levels. Counting rec leagues, maybe 100 times, lol.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:17pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1