Throw-in question

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by wjc3

I cannot find a direct rule or a case play. Player A1 is inbounding the ball after a made basket. He attempts to pass the ball to player A2, but at the last second decides not to and the pass goes up in the air and A1 catches his own pass. The pass never crosses the endline. A1 then successfully passes the ball to A2 before the five second count ends.

9-2-4: Once the throw-in starts, the ball shall be released on a pass
directly into the court before five seconds have elapsed.

The ball didn't go directly into the court on the first attempt (a fumble, or a muff).

Always listen to bob, keep counting.

[wjc3]

Thanks Bob and Billy. That is what I did.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

9-2-4: Once the throw-in starts, the ball shall be released on a pass
directly into the court before five seconds have elapsed.

The ball didn't go directly into the court on the first attempt (a fumble, or a muff).

Always listen to bob, keep counting.

I see your point however the OP neither had a fumble nor a muff. The OP indicated 3 times that the inbounder included a pass.

Let's try this: Team B scores a basket. During the subsequent throw-in, your 5-second count is at 4 and A1 and A2 are out of bounds behind the endline. Inbounder A1 throws a pass, which travels high and over the endline, and you stop your count. In a surprise move, A1, still out of bounds, steps back, and takes a running leap, jumps over the endline, catches the ball in the air, and throws it back to A2, who is still out of bounds. This stepping back, catching, and throwing back to A2 action, took more than 2 seconds.

When A1 caught his own pass, was that legal?
When the official stopped counting, is there recourse?
Can the official resume counting? If so when? Or is it simply a 5 second violation even though the count was stopped but you knew it took longer than 5 seconds?
What does "directly on the court" mean?

Officials stop counting on the release, not when the ball touches something. So in the OP, should not have the official stopped counting once the pass was released? (remember it was not a fumble/muff, but rather a pass)

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bucky

I see your point however the OP neither had a fumble nor a muff. The OP indicated 3 times that the inbounder included a pass.

Let's try this: Team B scores a basket. During the subsequent throw-in, your 5-second count is at 4 and A1 and A2 are out of bounds behind the endline. Inbounder A1 throws a pass, which travels high and over the endline, and you stop your count. In a surprise move, A1, still out of bounds, steps back, and takes a running leap, jumps over the endline, catches the ball in the air, and throws it back to A2, who is still out of bounds. This stepping back, catching, and throwing back to A2 action, took more than 2 seconds.

When A1 caught his own pass, was that legal?
When the official stopped counting, is there recourse?
Can the official resume counting? If so when? Or is it simply a 5 second violation even though the count was stopped but you knew it took longer than 5 seconds?
What does "directly on the court" mean?

Officials stop counting on the release, not when the ball touches something. So in the OP, should not have the official stopped counting once the pass was released? (remember it was not a fumble/muff, but rather a pass)

The thrower must keep one foot on or over the throw-in spot. In this case, the out of bounds area behind the end line. So A1 violated in your scenario.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The thrower must keep one foot on or over the throw-in spot.

Not after a made basket.

[wjc3]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The thrower must keep one foot on or over the throw-in spot. In this case, the out of bounds area behind the end line. So A1 violated in your scenario.

Does this apply to ALL throw-ins?? Including non-spot throw-ins such as after a made basket?? Thanks!

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by wjc3

Does this apply to ALL throw-ins?? Including non-spot throw-ins such as after a made basket??

Bullet points for the good of the cause:

A player inbounding the ball may step on, but not over the line and onto the court. The “traveling rule” is not in effect during a throwin. During a designated spot throwin, the player inbounding the ball must keep one foot on, or over, the three foot wide designated spot. An inbounding player is allowed to jump, or move one or both feet. A player inbounding the ball may move backward as far as the five second time limit, or space allows. If player moves outside the three foot wide designated spot, it is a throwin violation, not traveling. In gymnasiums with limited space outside the sidelines, and endlines, a defensive player may be asked to step back no more than three feet. A player inbounding the ball may “dribble” the ball on the out of bounds area prior to making a throwin. After a goal, or awarded goal, the team not credited with the score shall make the throwin from any point outside the end line. A team retains this “run the endline” privilege if a timeout is called during the dead ball period after the goal. After a goal, or awarded goal, any player of the team may make a direct throwin, or may pass the ball along the end line to a teammate outside the boundary line.

The defender may not break the boundary plane during a throwin until the ball has been released on a throwin pass. If the defender breaks the boundary plane during a throwin before the ball has been released on a throwin pass, the defender’s team will receive a team delay warning, or if the team has already been warned for one of the four delay situations, this action would result in a team technical foul. If the defender contacts the ball after breaking the boundary plane, it is a player technical foul and a team delay warning will be recorded. If the defender breaks the boundary plane, and fouls the inbounding player, it is an intentional personal foul, and a team delay warning will be recorded. It is an intentional personal foul if the defender fouls the inbounding player, even without breaking the boundary plane, however, in this specific case, there is no delay of game warning because the defender did not break the boundary plane.

The inbounding player does not have a plane restriction, but has five seconds to release the ball, and it must come directly onto the court. The ball shall not enter the basket before it is touched by another player, nor may it become lodged between the backboard and ring or come to rest on the flange before it is touched by another player. Following throwin violations, the ball is awarded to the opponents for a throwin at the original throwin spot. The ball can always be passed into the backcourt during a throwin. This situation is not a backcourt violation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

I see your point however the OP neither had a fumble nor a muff. The OP indicated 3 times that the inbounder included a pass.

Originally Posted by bucky

(remember it was not a fumble/muff, but rather a pass)

4-21: A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball
unintentionally drops or slips from a player’s grasp.

bucky is right. Fumble was my feeble attempt to describe this situation. Close, but no cigar.

It has been debated ad nauseam here on the Forum regarding whether, or not, one can make a self pass.

4-31: A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or
rolls the ball to another player.

I try to avoid describing a self pass, or an attempted pass that doesn't reach another player, as a "pass" (I will use the phrase "attempted pass", or "tried to pass" (like justacoach)).

Kind of like "endline" versus "base line", I just try to avoid the issue to stay in the good graces of all Forum members.

[JRutledge]

The thread should have ended at post #2. This is not that complicated.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The thread should have ended at post #2. This is not that complicated.

The "direct rule" wjc3 asked for came in post #3.

Agree, but it's the off season and the "double pass" makes this interesting, especially in regard to things that "could" happen.

Originally Posted by justacoach

Here's couple of puzzlers based on a similar sitch: what if ...???
1-B1 reaches across the endline and gains possession of ball that A1 tried to pass?
2-BI reaches across the endline and whacks A1's arm while A1 is in possession?
3-B1 reaches across the endline and whacks A1's arm after A1 has released the inbounds pass?
4- B1 reaches across the endline and gains joint possession of ball with A1?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The "direct rule" wjc3 asked for came in post #3.

Agree, but it's the off season and the "double pass" makes this interesting, especially in regard to things that "could" happen.

You missed the entire point if you think this is about the rule being quoted.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You missed the entire point if you think this is about the rule being quoted.

Originally Posted by wjc3

I cannot find a direct rule or a case play.

We found it for him.

Originally Posted by wjc3

Thanks Bob and Billy.

If you subscribe to the "give a fish, or teach to fish" philosophy, that's a great philosophy, but a few of us don't subscribe to it in regard to treating the Forum as a reference source.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The thread should have ended at post #2. This is not that complicated.

Peace

JRut (and others) - How would you respond to my case play? Thoughts?


"Team B scores a basket. During the subsequent throw-in, your 5-second count is at 4 and A1 and A2 are out of bounds behind the endline. Inbounder A1 throws a pass, which travels high and over the endline, and you stop your count. In a surprise move, A1, still out of bounds, steps back, and takes a running leap, jumps over the endline, catches the ball in the air, and throws it back to A2, who is still out of bounds. This stepping back, catching, and throwing back to A2 action, took more than 2 seconds.

When A1 caught his own pass, was that legal?
When the official stopped counting, is there recourse?
Can the official resume counting? If so when? Or is it simply a 5 second violation even though the count was stopped but you knew it took longer than 5 seconds?
What does "directly on the court" mean?

Officials stop counting on the release, not when the ball touches something. So in the OP, should not have the official stopped counting once the pass was released? (remember it was not a fumble/muff, but rather a pass)"

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

"Team B scores a basket. During the subsequent throw-in, your 5-second count is at 4 and A1 and A2 are out of bounds behind the endline. Inbounder A1 throws a pass, which travels high and over the endline, and you stop your count. In a surprise move, A1, still out of bounds, steps back, and takes a running leap, jumps over the endline, catches the ball in the air, and throws it back to A2, who is still out of bounds. This stepping back, catching, and throwing back to A2 action, took more than 2 seconds. When A1 caught his own pass, was that legal? When the official stopped counting, is there recourse? Can the official resume counting? If so when? Or is it simply a 5 second violation even though the count was stopped but you knew it took longer than 5 seconds? What does "directly on the court" mean? Officials stop counting on the release, not when the ball touches something. So in the OP, should not have the official stopped counting once the pass was released? (remember it was not a fumble/muff, but rather a pass)"

Interesting situation.

Keep in mind that some esteemed Forum members do not subscribe to the idea that there can be such a thing as a "self pass".

4-31: A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or
rolls the ball to another player.

Even if it's not a self pass, it's still interesting because many of us would temporarily stop counting on the "release".

Nevadaref also brings up an interesting point:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You have to decide if this is a violation of 9-2-6 or not.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Where's the possible throwin violation? Because the first "attempted" pass didn't go directly onto the court? Let's discuss.

As does justacoach:

Originally Posted by justacoach

1-B1 reaches across the endline and gains possession of ball that A1 tried to pass?
2-BI reaches across the endline and whacks A1's arm while A1 is in possession?
3-B1 reaches across the endline and whacks A1's arm after A1 has released the inbounds pass?
4-B1 reaches across the endline and gains joint possession of ball with A1?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bucky

JRut (and others) - How would you respond to my case play? Thoughts?


"Team B scores a basket. During the subsequent throw-in, your 5-second count is at 4 and A1 and A2 are out of bounds behind the endline. Inbounder A1 throws a pass, which travels high and over the endline, and you stop your count. In a surprise move, A1, still out of bounds, steps back, and takes a running leap, jumps over the endline, catches the ball in the air, and throws it back to A2, who is still out of bounds. This stepping back, catching, and throwing back to A2 action, took more than 2 seconds.

When A1 caught his own pass, was that legal?
When the official stopped counting, is there recourse?
Can the official resume counting? If so when? Or is it simply a 5 second violation even though the count was stopped but you knew it took longer than 5 seconds?
What does "directly on the court" mean?

Officials stop counting on the release, not when the ball touches something. So in the OP, should not have the official stopped counting once the pass was released? (remember it was not a fumble/muff, but rather a pass)"

The bottom line is do you have a fumble or an actual pass? I do not think you should be such in a hurry to stop a count until you know they are actually passing the ball. So some of this is if there clearly is a pass, you will know. If there clearly is a fumble which is a temporary loss of the ball, you know the difference or should take enough time to know the difference.

I do not know if what you are asking is that deep. This is why you need to see plays. If you feel that the situation might be a fumble, then you know to not be so quick to stop a count. I am not blowing my whistle until I clearly have a violation for 5 seconds anyway. I guess we could do the mental gymnastics of what could happen to a situation that most of us have never seen (I do not think I have ever seen this play in life). But is that helping you with the normal stuff we do?

Peace