Throw-in question

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The "direct rule" wjc3 asked for came in post #3.

Agree, but it's the off season and the "double pass" makes this interesting, especially in regard to things that "could" happen.

You missed the entire point if you think this is about the rule being quoted.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You missed the entire point if you think this is about the rule being quoted.

Originally Posted by wjc3

I cannot find a direct rule or a case play.

We found it for him.

Originally Posted by wjc3

Thanks Bob and Billy.

If you subscribe to the "give a fish, or teach to fish" philosophy, that's a great philosophy, but a few of us don't subscribe to it in regard to treating the Forum as a reference source.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The thread should have ended at post #2. This is not that complicated.

Peace

JRut (and others) - How would you respond to my case play? Thoughts?


"Team B scores a basket. During the subsequent throw-in, your 5-second count is at 4 and A1 and A2 are out of bounds behind the endline. Inbounder A1 throws a pass, which travels high and over the endline, and you stop your count. In a surprise move, A1, still out of bounds, steps back, and takes a running leap, jumps over the endline, catches the ball in the air, and throws it back to A2, who is still out of bounds. This stepping back, catching, and throwing back to A2 action, took more than 2 seconds.

When A1 caught his own pass, was that legal?
When the official stopped counting, is there recourse?
Can the official resume counting? If so when? Or is it simply a 5 second violation even though the count was stopped but you knew it took longer than 5 seconds?
What does "directly on the court" mean?

Officials stop counting on the release, not when the ball touches something. So in the OP, should not have the official stopped counting once the pass was released? (remember it was not a fumble/muff, but rather a pass)"

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

"Team B scores a basket. During the subsequent throw-in, your 5-second count is at 4 and A1 and A2 are out of bounds behind the endline. Inbounder A1 throws a pass, which travels high and over the endline, and you stop your count. In a surprise move, A1, still out of bounds, steps back, and takes a running leap, jumps over the endline, catches the ball in the air, and throws it back to A2, who is still out of bounds. This stepping back, catching, and throwing back to A2 action, took more than 2 seconds. When A1 caught his own pass, was that legal? When the official stopped counting, is there recourse? Can the official resume counting? If so when? Or is it simply a 5 second violation even though the count was stopped but you knew it took longer than 5 seconds? What does "directly on the court" mean? Officials stop counting on the release, not when the ball touches something. So in the OP, should not have the official stopped counting once the pass was released? (remember it was not a fumble/muff, but rather a pass)"

Interesting situation.

Keep in mind that some esteemed Forum members do not subscribe to the idea that there can be such a thing as a "self pass".

4-31: A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or
rolls the ball to another player.

Even if it's not a self pass, it's still interesting because many of us would temporarily stop counting on the "release".

Nevadaref also brings up an interesting point:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You have to decide if this is a violation of 9-2-6 or not.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Where's the possible throwin violation? Because the first "attempted" pass didn't go directly onto the court? Let's discuss.

As does justacoach:

Originally Posted by justacoach

1-B1 reaches across the endline and gains possession of ball that A1 tried to pass?
2-BI reaches across the endline and whacks A1's arm while A1 is in possession?
3-B1 reaches across the endline and whacks A1's arm after A1 has released the inbounds pass?
4-B1 reaches across the endline and gains joint possession of ball with A1?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bucky

JRut (and others) - How would you respond to my case play? Thoughts?


"Team B scores a basket. During the subsequent throw-in, your 5-second count is at 4 and A1 and A2 are out of bounds behind the endline. Inbounder A1 throws a pass, which travels high and over the endline, and you stop your count. In a surprise move, A1, still out of bounds, steps back, and takes a running leap, jumps over the endline, catches the ball in the air, and throws it back to A2, who is still out of bounds. This stepping back, catching, and throwing back to A2 action, took more than 2 seconds.

When A1 caught his own pass, was that legal?
When the official stopped counting, is there recourse?
Can the official resume counting? If so when? Or is it simply a 5 second violation even though the count was stopped but you knew it took longer than 5 seconds?
What does "directly on the court" mean?

Officials stop counting on the release, not when the ball touches something. So in the OP, should not have the official stopped counting once the pass was released? (remember it was not a fumble/muff, but rather a pass)"

The bottom line is do you have a fumble or an actual pass? I do not think you should be such in a hurry to stop a count until you know they are actually passing the ball. So some of this is if there clearly is a pass, you will know. If there clearly is a fumble which is a temporary loss of the ball, you know the difference or should take enough time to know the difference.

I do not know if what you are asking is that deep. This is why you need to see plays. If you feel that the situation might be a fumble, then you know to not be so quick to stop a count. I am not blowing my whistle until I clearly have a violation for 5 seconds anyway. I guess we could do the mental gymnastics of what could happen to a situation that most of us have never seen (I do not think I have ever seen this play in life). But is that helping you with the normal stuff we do?

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

But is that helping you with the normal stuff we do?

I agree with you 100% that all of us should be working on doing a better job on things that we see 99% of the time, and not go off willy nilly getting into the weeds with fanciful situations that we would never see if we officiated for one hundred years (like Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.).

And I agree with you 100% that all of us could do the "mental gymnastics" of counting to five in this odd situation. We're all basketball officials, we're all trained to make quick decisions under stressful conditions, even when some situations may seem somewhat out of the ordinary.

That being said, there is some value in digging into the rulebook and casebook in a detailed manner regarding really "odd" situations, more so in the "quiet" off season. Regarding this thread, I posted bullet points for throwin situations and have reviewed them over and over as I read posts and replies from different members. While nothing jumped out at me, it was still a valuable review.

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1032962

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

That being said, there is some value in digging into the rulebook and casebook in a detailed manner regarding really "odd" situations, more so in the "quiet" off season. Regarding this thread, I posted bullet points for throwin situations and have reviewed them over and over as I read posts and replies from different members. While nothing jumped out at me, it was still a valuable review.

I have no issues with getting into the rulebook or casebook about plays and situation during any time of the year. I just feel we should not live there on certain situations. If we know the definition of a fumble as opposed to a pass, then this situation should be easy to figure out. Until you actually pass the ball, the count for a throw-in continues. Just like I probably am not going to stop a count of a player bounces the ball on the floor when making a throw-in attempt, because it is clearly not a pass either. Yes is it possible to fumble the ball on a throw-in? It sure is, but is this situation going to cause you that much strife in your mind? It really shouldn't. Because whatever you call is not likely to cause much conflict if you explain it right. But if someone is clearly not passing the ball, then I am not going to stop the count to because it is unusual looking. They only have 5 seconds, something will have to be done soon. Not sure how you can restart the count as even an option? They have either violated by making a pass or they still have not made a pass. Make a decision and move on.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If we know the definition of a fumble as opposed to a pass, then this situation should be easy to figure out. Until you actually pass the ball, the count for a throw-in continues. Just like I probably am not going to stop a count of a player bounces the ball on the floor when making a throw-in attempt, because it is clearly not a pass either. Yes is it possible to fumble the ball on a throw-in? ... if someone is clearly not passing the ball, then I am not going to stop the count ... because it is unusual looking. They only have 5 seconds, something will have to be done soon ...

All great points, especially the fumble, and the "dribble", plays that we've all have actually seen in real life, in real games, many times, and interpreted properly.

Of course, we occasionally run into a "deer in the headlights" rookie official, who doesn't know if the basketball is stuffed, or inflated, who calls an illegal (double) "dribble" on an inbounder, or a "travel" on an inbounder leaving the designated spot, or doesn't recognize a fumble caused by the official poorly handing, or bouncing, the ball to an inbounder.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have no issues with getting into the rulebook or casebook about plays and situation during any time of the year. I just feel we should not live there on certain situations. If we know the definition of a fumble as opposed to a pass, then this situation should be easy to figure out. Until you actually pass the ball, the count for a throw-in continues. Just like I probably am not going to stop a count of a player bounces the ball on the floor when making a throw-in attempt, because it is clearly not a pass either. Yes is it possible to fumble the ball on a throw-in? It sure is, but is this situation going to cause you that much strife in your mind? It really shouldn't. Because whatever you call is not likely to cause much conflict if you explain it right. But if someone is clearly not passing the ball, then I am not going to stop the count to because it is unusual looking. They only have 5 seconds, something will have to be done soon. Not sure how you can restart the count as even an option? They have either violated by making a pass or they still have not made a pass. Make a decision and move on.

Peace

Great point Jrut. Let's focus on the norms.

Now, for weirdos like me that can't let stuff go....

You indicated "..have either violated by making a pass or..." How is it a violation by making a pass to one-self in this case? Case 4.44.3 Sit C indicates that it is a traveling violation to throw a ball in the air, take several steps, and catch it. However, we also know that the traveling and dribbling rules are not in effect for a throw-in (rule 4-42 note). In this strange case, then it would not be a traveling violation.They also have not made a pass because the ball has not moved from one player to another.

Back to what Jrut concluded, let's worry about what happens 99% of the time and not the other stuff. This case appears to neither fall under any defined rules nor any case plays. The actions are legal and the official has to discern when to end their 5-second count.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bucky

You indicated "..have either violated by making a pass or..." How is it a violation by making a pass to one-self in this case? Case 4.44.3 Sit C indicates that it is a traveling violation to throw a ball in the air, take several steps, and catch it. However, we also know that the traveling and dribbling rules are not in effect for a throw-in (rule 4-42 note). In this strange case, then it would not be a traveling violation.They also have not made a pass because the ball has not moved from one player to another.

If you know traveling and dribble rules do not apply on a throw-in, why invoke those situations in this situation? This is why I said what I said. The only issue is if they did not throw a pass directly onto the court, which is a HTBT situation anyway and some judgment would be used if a pass was not allowed to go directly onto the court as that is a violation. I would also assume that the player never gets onto the court or they did not leave their designated spot.

Again, I get it trying to figure out the holes in the rules, but do not live there.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I get it trying to figure out the holes in the rules, but do not live there.

I don't live there either, and I don't ever want to live there. But I don't mind an occasional visit, a very short visit.

Especially "visiting" with some guys here on the Forum.

Most of my local colleagues have no interest in theoretical make believe basketball rulings.

They view such as a huge waste of their time, with little, or no benefit to them, in some cases, having a negative confusing effect on them.

And like JRutledge, I get that, and I respect that as well.

[Raymond]

In the real world of physics and time, if I'm up to 4 and the thrower-in releases the ball, jumps in the air, catches the ball, then throws the ball to A2 who is OOB, all those actions will most definitely take up a full second. So I will call a 5-second violation. I don't need to swing my arm to keep track of 1 second of time.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

...

They view such as a huge waste of their time, with little, or no benefit to them, in some cases, having a negative confusing effect on them.

...

I'm quite sure I've made that specific observation multiple times.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Most of my local colleagues have no interest in theoretical make believe basketball rulings. They view such as a huge waste of their time, with little, or no benefit to them, in some cases, having a negative confusing effect on them.

Originally Posted by Raymond

I'm quite sure I've made that specific observation multiple times.

While I can easily separate theoretical rule discussions from real game rule dissuasions, I do have an Achilles heel, rule changes, not new rules, but rules that change, in a few cases, back and forth, more than once, over decades (free throw release, or the hit, jump balls caught by jumpers, swinging elbows, kicked throwins, double fouls, etc.)

I've always said it's not the rules, it's the rule changes that cause problems for me. The easiest rules for me to learn were the rules that I learned in my first year. After that, new rules were easy. Existing rules that changed, and maybe changed again, were always difficult.

Jump balls caught by jumpers? Lose the ball, lose the arrow. Not anymore.

Excessive swinging elbows? Violation? No. Technical foul? No. Violation.

Kicked alternating possession throwin? Illegal touch, but still a touch inbounds. Alternating possession throwin ends? Or does it?

Now, where are my car keys?

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by bucky

Great point Jrut. Let's focus on the norms.

Now, for weirdos like me that can't let stuff go....

You indicated "..have either violated by making a pass or..." How is it a violation by making a pass to one-self in this case? Case 4.44.3 Sit C indicates that it is a traveling violation to throw a ball in the air, take several steps, and catch it. However, we also know that the traveling and dribbling rules are not in effect for a throw-in (rule 4-42 note). In this strange case, then it would not be a traveling violation.They also have not made a pass because the ball has not moved from one player to another.

Back to what Jrut concluded, let's worry about what happens 99% of the time and not the other stuff. This case appears to neither fall under any defined rules nor any case plays. The actions are legal and the official has to discern when to end their 5-second count.

This is irrelevant. If a thrower-in throws the ball to himself, he has violated the rules concerning the throw-in. For a throw-in to be legal, it must touch another player on the court inbounds. A throw in to oneself does not meet that requirement. Case closed.