T Time Saturday - Help me here

[RefsNCoaches]

The time between 2nd and 3rd Ts was maybe 10 seconds so coach hadn't been notified just yet. He's a long time coach in this league (as am I from the officiating side of things) and he was as calm and cool as you could be about it.

As for piling on the Ts...I don't think that was the case here...this kid had taken issue with a PF committed against him early in Q1 where he got knocked down and he got up a little chippy about it....we talked to him and told him to calm down...then a little later is when he picked up his first T.

JRut ...our question was just surrounding him being disqualified and acting like a tool picking up the 3rd T. If he's still on the floor at the time that 3rd T is whistled, he's not a participant at that point due to the 2nd so just questioning administration of the penalty. I think we handled it properly as there was no not giving that 3rd T for slamming the ball down and it bouncing about 10' in the air.

So not only did that cost his team that game but now the hot head has to sit next weekend and it's the first weekend of their tournament (single elim)

[bucky]

3rd T? Unless you have some sort of league specific rules, there is no such thing. After second T, wait for him to leave gym, then shoot FT's, and continue game. If he refuses to leave gym, just forfeit game.

[RefsNCoaches]

Originally Posted by bucky

3rd T? Unless you have some sort of league specific rules, there is no such thing. After second T, wait for him to leave gym, then shoot FT's, and continue game. If he refuses to leave gym, just forfeit game.

That is in part why I asked too. I've never had that situation. Would you let the slamming of the ball down after the 2nd technical go? The entire gym saw it....

[bucky]

Originally Posted by RefsNCoaches

That is in part why I asked too. I've never had that situation. Would you let the slamming of the ball down after the 2nd technical go? The entire gym saw it....

Yes, let it go. The game has become a travesty..for a moment. It is in the league's hands now. I have been in a rec league where someone was ejected (2 direct Ts) and then lobbed the ball towards the ref who was not looking. The ball hit him directly in the back of the head and the ref went down. Medical treatment was needed. Lawsuit was filed, etc. Were we supposed to give another T for lobbing the ball? And one for hitting the ref? And another for the ref going down? Of course not, this conversation is about direct Ts and there is no such thing as a third...of which I have ever heard. By that rational, a ref could simply give 5, 7, 11 T's in a row, maybe more. Rules reference? Exactly, where is it in the rules that people are getting a 3rd direct T that trumps the other cases citing ejection, travesty, forfeiture, etc.

Point is, once the player has been ejected/DQ'd or whatever term you want to use, it is no longer in your hands. The league, spectator judgement(social justice), police, or whatever, will address any further behavior from the culprit. Do not continue the game until the player has left and if the player has not left or is uncooperative, then you leave. Simple as that. If the league director or other person "in charge" favors allowing that type of player to ruin the game and finds disfavor with you for leaving, then neither you nor should anyone, officiate for that person/league. Take your dignity with you and never look back.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

... this conversation is about direct Ts and there is no such thing as a third... once the player has been ... DQ'd ... it is no longer in your hands.

Citation please?

Until I get over to the coach to discuss ejection from the gym and/or forfeiture, the player is not going to get away with taking "free shots" at me, my partner, or other players. I'm not going to fire away with technicals like a machine gun, but I'm not automatically stopping at two.

Originally Posted by bucky

Do not continue the game until the player has left and if the player has not left or is uncooperative, then you leave.

Agree.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bucky

Yes, let it go. The game has become a travesty..for a moment. It is in the league's hands now. I have been in a rec league where someone was ejected (2 direct Ts) and then lobbed the ball towards the ref who was not looking. The ball hit him directly in the back of the head and the ref went down. Medical treatment was needed. Lawsuit was filed, etc. Were we supposed to give another T for lobbing the ball? And one for hitting the ref? And another for the ref going down? Of course not, this conversation is about direct Ts and there is no such thing as a third...of which I have ever heard. By that rational, a ref could simply give 5, 7, 11 T's in a row, maybe more. Rules reference? Exactly, where is it in the rules that people are getting a 3rd direct T that trumps the other cases citing ejection, travesty, forfeiture, etc.

Point is, once the player has been ejected/DQ'd or whatever term you want to use, it is no longer in your hands. The league, spectator judgement(social justice), police, or whatever, will address any further behavior from the culprit. Do not continue the game until the player has left and if the player has not left or is uncooperative, then you leave. Simple as that. If the league director or other person "in charge" favors allowing that type of player to ruin the game and finds disfavor with you for leaving, then neither you nor should anyone, officiate for that person/league. Take your dignity with you and never look back.

I'd love to see where you get that. I think you need the rules reference to back up your claim as the only things I see is what actions should be called a T. None of them say to ignore them if the team member has been DQ'd already. The person is still a team member and under your jurisdiction. If they commit an infraction of the rules, penalize it.

And yes, another T should have been called for a player throwing the ball at the ref...the fact that it hit him and needed medical attention was still the same act, however. But, that was a rec league. I'd forfeit the game at that point and be done with it. So the number of T's wouldn't matter.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by bucky

Point is, once the player has been ejected/DQ'd or whatever term you want to use, it is no longer in your hands.

So by this logic, say you DQ a player for a 5th foul. Then he calls you an expletive on his way off the court. Is it no longer in your hands to award an unsporting technical because it would be his 6th?

There is a case play that precisely allows you to grant this sixth foul. To me, it therefore follows that there is no prohibition against fouls (technical and/or personal) above the DQ threshold.

I agree with BillyMac....rapid fire Ts are not desirable, but an additional T for an additional specific unsporting act as in the OP cannot be ignored and should be penalized.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

... lobbed the ball towards the ref who was not looking. The ball hit him directly in the back of the head and the ref went down ...

Not always an automatic technical foul, need some context and intent to decide.

I've had players toss me the ball thinking I was paying attention when I was actually concentrating on something else and I've been hit with the ball, and I've seen the same thing happen to partners, and in games I was observing.

(I've also tossed the ball to my partner and had a player cross the path of the ball and get hit with that ball.)

Yeah, it's probably T-worthy, but it could also just be an accident, wrong place, wrong time, no intent of unsporting conduct, or harm.

(I've also hit a player in the face while looking at the table for the possession arrow direction and pointing the direction without looking where I was pointing. Ouch. Not my finest hour.)

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by bucky

3rd T? Unless you have some sort of league specific rules, there is no such thing. After second T, wait for him to leave gym, then shoot FT's, and continue game. If he refuses to leave gym, just forfeit game.

Rules reference?

[RefsNCoaches]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Rules reference?

Having been a part of this league for 19 seasons...I know what their board of directors wants in terms of behavior from coaches and players but no, nothing in the "house rules" ...but we got no argument from coach, the Commissioner of that particular league or the league President who happened to be at this site that day (they play in 3-4 different locations).

Appreciate you guys chiming in...always a good learning environment here!

[deecee]

Originally Posted by bucky

3rd T? Unless you have some sort of league specific rules, there is no such thing. After second T, wait for him to leave gym, then shoot FT's, and continue game. If he refuses to leave gym, just forfeit game.

This is wrong.....there is no limit to how many T's you can give someone. Unless something has changed recently. The only difference is after DQ, the coach is also getting indirects.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by bucky

3rd T? Unless you have some sort of league specific rules, there is no such thing. After second T, wait for him to leave gym, then shoot FT's, and continue game. If he refuses to leave gym, just forfeit game.

Originally Posted by deecee

This is wrong.....there is no limit to how many T's you can give someone. Unless something has changed recently. The only difference is after DQ, the coach is also getting indirects.

Also, as was mentioned earlier, they are not required to leave the floor. If their continued presence will inevitably cause a problem, you can send them with adult personnel to the locker room, but there isn't a requirement for them to leave.

[Raymond]

Around here players have a certain amount of time to vacate the confines of the gym (or get to the bench if children) when they get ejected. After that, it is a forfeit and I'm sure some type of suspension or banishment from that particular league.

[BillyMac]

5-4-1: The referee shall forfeit the game if a team refuses to play after
being instructed to do so by any official. The referee may also forfeit a
game if any player, team member, bench personnel or coach fails to comply
with any technical-foul penalty, or repeatedly commits technical-foul
infractions or other acts which make a travesty of the game. If the team to
which the game is forfeited is ahead, the score at the time of forfeiture shall
stand. If this team is not ahead, the score shall be recorded as 2-0 in its
favor.

5.4.1 SITUATION A COMMENT: The referee may forfeit a game if any player, team member, bench personnel or coach fails to comply with any technical foul penalty.

[Altor]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Around here players have a certain amount of time to vacate the confines of the gym (or get to the bench if children) when they get ejected.

Does a second (or even third) technical foul charged to a player automatically warrant an ejection?