PC Foul called - Lowering the shoulder or not LGP (Video)

[JRutledge]

Peace

[crosscountry55]

Meh. I don’t love the call. Don’t hate it but don’t love it, either. Didn’t look like the ball handler initiated the contact and it didn’t look like he warded off, either. I’d prefer a call on the defender here. Not the easiest call to make in crowded transition.




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[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Didn’t look like the ball handler initiated the contact and it didn’t look like he warded off, either. I’d prefer a call on the defender here.

Who initiated contact is really not relevant. They collided and (usually) one or the other illegal in doing so. The right question is did the defender have LGP or not. The offense can "initiate contact" all day and still get a foul on a defender if the defender doesn't have LGP. If that were not the case, 99% of fast breaks with defenders trying to get back would be charges.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Who initiated contact is really not relevant. They collided and (usually) one or the other illegal in doing so. The right question is did the defender have LGP or not. The offense can "initiate contact" all day and still get a foul on a defender if the defender doesn't have LGP. If that were not the case, 99% of fast breaks with defenders trying to get back would be charges.

Fair point but do you have an opinion on this play? The title inferred a lowering of the shoulder (which implies a charge and responsibility on the offense regardless of LGP), or a case of LGP being established. I didn’t see either.


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[Rich]

I don't think the defender is ever legal. Not a fan of the call.

[thedewed]

no call. lgp is iffy at best, and d was closing on o at an angle, but offense initiated. a better no call in my book.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Fair point but do you have an opinion on this play? The title inferred a lowering of the shoulder (which implies a charge and responsibility on the offense regardless of LGP), or a case of LGP being established. I didn’t see either.


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I've yet to see "lowering the shoulder" as a reason for a foul in any rulebook. Every person who is running has lowered his/her shoulder to some degree. They'd fall backwards if not....try to run fast without leaning forward.

I don't have the defender in LGP...block.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I've yet to see "lowering the shoulder" as a reason for a foul in any rulebook. Every person who is running has lowered his/her shoulder to some degree. They'd fall backwards if not....try to run fast without leaning forward.

I don't have the defender in LGP...block.

I have yet to see anything that suggests a defender like this is not in LGP. He is doing all the things required and gets run into. PC foul all day and twice on Sunday.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

PC Foul called - Lowering the shoulder or not LGP

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

The title inferred a lowering of the shoulder (which implies a charge and responsibility on the offense regardless of LGP),

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I've yet to see "lowering the shoulder" as a reason for a foul in any rulebook. Every person who is running has lowered his/her shoulder to some degree.

Over many years, why have we seen many, many references to "lowering the shoulder" here on the Forum in reference to player control charging fouls?

Did I miss something when I first learned high school rules?

I remember talking about legal guarding position, feet, verticality, movement, airborne players, torsos, ducking, etc., but I don't remember discussing lowering shoulders (other than getting head and shoulders past the defender).

Was I absent that day?

Was it "Senior Skip Day"?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Peace

My instincts on this play in real time, on the court, would be to call a PC foul. I don't see anything in the video to make me think that is the wrong call. If someone were to call it a block, I'm not going look at the video and say definitively that they are wrong.

What I do know from this video is that the calling official had the best look in the house, including better than the camera.