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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 01, 2019, 04:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post


Peace
My instincts on this play in real time, on the court, would be to call a PC foul. I don't see anything in the video to make me think that is the wrong call. If someone were to call it a block, I'm not going look at the video and say definitively that they are wrong.

What I do know from this video is that the calling official had the best look in the house, including better than the camera.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 01, 2019, 05:13pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Yeah, to those that just call a block automatically. This level honestly wants more charges called and if it is a coin flip, I am calling a charge. I think it is a charge anyway because the defender had LGP and took the contact in the chest. I honestly cannot even believe this is a debate.

Peace
IMO, the defender did not have LGP....2 feet down, in the path, facing. He did at one point but lost it for a while and never reobtained it. It is not an obvious result either way. You can't honestly and intelligently say this isn't a debatable point. That IS the whole point of this play.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 16, 2019, 12:06am
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Play #2: Another one


Peace
I'm biased, since I have family that works at UM, and was born in AA, but this was a PC foul.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 18, 2019, 06:41am
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
IMO, the defender did not have LGP....2 feet down, in the path, facing.
My rule book shows only two requirements: 2 feet touching the court, and guard's torso facing opponent. Nothing about "in the path."

Seems to me LGP was obtained outside the 3-point line at the beginning of the video.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 18, 2019, 07:52am
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From the NCAA rules book (emphasis added; HS is different):

Section 17. Guarding
Art. 1. Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an
offensive opponent. The guarding position shall be initially established and then
maintained inbounds on the playing court.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 18, 2019, 08:48am
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In NCAA-M, is a defender with LGP who moves laterally still legal?
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 18, 2019, 09:08am
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Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
In NCAA-M, is a defender with LGP who moves laterally still legal?
Yes. The principles are no different. One can, and needs to maintain guarding position otherwise "being set" would be a requirement. Hint: It isn't.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 18, 2019, 01:18pm
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Originally Posted by griblets View Post
My rule book shows only two requirements: 2 feet touching the court, and guard's torso facing opponent. Nothing about "in the path."

Seems to me LGP was obtained outside the 3-point line at the beginning of the video.
You're skipping part of the rule. It is there. If you think about the implications of what you think the rule is you get some really silly results.

NFHS Rule 4
Quote:
NFHS Rule 4, SECTION 23 GUARDING
ART. 1 . . . Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent.
LGP is a special case of the more general "guarding". LGP doesn't replace the requirements of "Guarding", it just adds to it and grants additional rights along with it.

You're not the first to make that mistake.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Mon Mar 18, 2019 at 01:22pm.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 18, 2019, 01:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
You're skipping part of the rule. It is there. If you think about the implications of what you think the rule is you get some really silly results.

NFHS Rule 4


LGP is a special case of the more general "guarding". LGP doesn't replace the requirements of "Guarding", it just adds to it and grants additional rights along with it.

You're not the first to make that mistake.


How is LGP maintained and when is it lost?

I see this play as a PC foul all day every day.


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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 18, 2019, 02:05pm
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
How is LGP maintained and when is it lost?

I see this play as a PC foul all day every day.


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I agree this is a PC or no call depending on your brand. No way is this a block.

I think the argument that LGP is lost and needs to be regained (not how I see it) is that LGP is an extension of guarding, to be guarding you have to be in the path, so they are deeming a some point in the drive the defense is not in the path and no requires to get back to a guarding and LGP position to get the benefit of either.

The question I would have is the ambiguity of path. Defense can be attempting to do different things when guarding (shading, containing, pressuring, funneling, etc to the ball carrier) some defenses are trying to stay between their player and basket others are trying to pressure them to a specfic spot, etc. All of these I would consider guarding. All of them require different positions and cutting off different directions and path(s). The direction the ball handler is going is one path, but the path to basket is a different path, if we want to get into some language issues a path doesn't have to be straight. See what I'm saying. If the player is between the ball carrier and basket, is defending the ball, and meets LGP i'm good.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 18, 2019, 02:06pm
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Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post
I agree this is a PC or no call depending on your brand. No way is this a block.



I think the argument that LGP is lost and needs to be regained (not how I see it) is that LGP is an extension of guarding, to be guarding you have to be in the path, so they are deeming a some point in the drive the defense is not in the path and no requires to get back to a guarding and LGP position to get the benefit of either.



The question I would have is the ambiguity of path. Defense can be attempting to do different things when guarding (shading, containing, pressuring, funneling, etc to the ball carrier) some defenses are trying to stay between their player and basket others are trying to pressure them to a specfic spot, etc. All of these I would consider guarding. All of them require different positions and cutting off different directions and path(s). The direction the ball handler is going is one path, but the path to basket is a different path, if we want to get into some language issues a path doesn't have to be straight. See what I'm saying. If the player is between the ball carrier and basket, is defending the ball, and meets LGP i'm good.


The book says it ends when head and shoulders are past. I just don't see this as qualifying.


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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 18, 2019, 03:19pm
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
The book says it ends when head and shoulders are past. I just don't see this as qualifying.


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It also ends when the player is no longer in the path since a player not in the path is not even guarding. This is where I feel the player has lost LGP. As long as we're all applying the proper rules and coming up with a different judgement, we can certainly have different rulings.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 19, 2019, 01:04pm
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Well I can see lots of occasions when the defense is along side (not in LGP ) and the offense wards off, pushes off the defender and I have a PC foul. Offense could even bump a defender who is behind him/her and not touching creating contact and getting a PCF.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 19, 2019, 01:27pm
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
It also ends when the player is no longer in the path since a player not in the path is not even guarding. This is where I feel the player has lost LGP. As long as we're all applying the proper rules and coming up with a different judgement, we can certainly have different rulings.
So you only apply "in the path" as if the defender is in front of the offensive player that's moving on a straight line? That seems very limiting.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 19, 2019, 03:58pm
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So you only apply "in the path" as if the defender is in front of the offensive player that's moving on a straight line? That seems very limiting.
No. The line the offensive player is moving in is only one of many possible paths. It is also a path the offensive player turns into if the defender is occupying that path and has LGP in it. The defender doesn't get to get 2 feet down in one spot and move into a new "path" and have the prior 2 feet down count.

Example: A1 drives from the top of the key. B4, guarding A4 in the corner is turned torwards A1 and has both feet down. Seeing A1 beat B1, B4 races across the lane while turned sideways (relative to A1). A1 crashes into B4's left side as B4 crosses A1's path.

This is a block 100% of the time because while B4 had 2 feet down and was facing A1 (while B4 was in the corner), I do not know of a single official that considers that LGP.
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