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-   -   PC Foul called - Lowering the shoulder or not LGP (Video) (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/104407-pc-foul-called-lowering-shoulder-not-lgp-video.html)

JRutledge Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:01pm

PC Foul called - Lowering the shoulder or not LGP (Video)
 
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/39IqAkL39HI" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Peace

crosscountry55 Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:46pm

PC Foul called - Lowering the shoulder or not LGP (Video)
 
Meh. I donít love the call. Donít hate it but donít love it, either. Didnít look like the ball handler initiated the contact and it didnít look like he warded off, either. Iíd prefer a call on the defender here. Not the easiest call to make in crowded transition.




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Camron Rust Sun Feb 24, 2019 03:40am

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1030606)
Didnít look like the ball handler initiated the contact and it didnít look like he warded off, either. Iíd prefer a call on the defender here.


Who initiated contact is really not relevant. They collided and (usually) one or the other illegal in doing so. The right question is did the defender have LGP or not. The offense can "initiate contact" all day and still get a foul on a defender if the defender doesn't have LGP. If that were not the case, 99% of fast breaks with defenders trying to get back would be charges.

crosscountry55 Sun Feb 24, 2019 09:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1030609)
Who initiated contact is really not relevant. They collided and (usually) one or the other illegal in doing so. The right question is did the defender have LGP or not. The offense can "initiate contact" all day and still get a foul on a defender if the defender doesn't have LGP. If that were not the case, 99% of fast breaks with defenders trying to get back would be charges.



Fair point but do you have an opinion on this play? The title inferred a lowering of the shoulder (which implies a charge and responsibility on the offense regardless of LGP), or a case of LGP being established. I didnít see either.


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Rich Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:20am

I don't think the defender is ever legal. Not a fan of the call.

thedewed Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:46pm

no call. lgp is iffy at best, and d was closing on o at an angle, but offense initiated. a better no call in my book.

crosscountry55 Sun Feb 24, 2019 01:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedewed (Post 1030620)
no call. lgp is iffy at best, and d was closing on o at an angle, but offense initiated. a better no call in my book.



Iím okay with that logic if the defender doesnít tumble to the floor the way he did here. But with that tumble, the only way Iím no-calling is if the tumble was an obvious flop. Otherwise my instinct says there has to be a whistle on this play. Like an old clinician once said, ďIf players end up on the floor, know how they got there.Ē


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Camron Rust Sun Feb 24, 2019 01:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1030611)
Fair point but do you have an opinion on this play? The title inferred a lowering of the shoulder (which implies a charge and responsibility on the offense regardless of LGP), or a case of LGP being established. I didnít see either.


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I've yet to see "lowering the shoulder" as a reason for a foul in any rulebook. Every person who is running has lowered his/her shoulder to some degree. They'd fall backwards if not....try to run fast without leaning forward.

I don't have the defender in LGP...block.

JRutledge Sun Feb 24, 2019 01:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1030626)
I've yet to see "lowering the shoulder" as a reason for a foul in any rulebook. Every person who is running has lowered his/her shoulder to some degree. They'd fall backwards if not....try to run fast without leaning forward.

I don't have the defender in LGP...block.

I have yet to see anything that suggests a defender like this is not in LGP. He is doing all the things required and gets run into. PC foul all day and twice on Sunday.

Peace

Kelvin green Sun Feb 24, 2019 03:14pm

I’m with JRut... what did the defender do wrong? In many plays we assume that the defender is wrong but why? What we need to do is officiate from the presumption that defenders play legally. ( we officiate the defense) ... we should never penalize good defense but it happens all too often....in this play the defender has done nothing wrong and gets displaced.

I like this call and think it is exactly what needed to be called...

ilyazhito Sun Feb 24, 2019 03:23pm

Correct call. This is not football, where an offensive player can legally stiff-arm or drive a shoulder into a defender to put him on the ground. By the same token, lack of LGP does not give the offensive player license to initiate illegal contact and get away with it scot-free. This is why there is an exception to the restricted area rule for when an offensive player uses an unnatural motion to illegally contact a defender (using a shoulder, forearm, or knee to create separation or knock the defender down). I would apply the same thinking anywhere else on the court, and call the player control foul on blue here.

BillyMac Sun Feb 24, 2019 03:26pm

I Have A Note From My Mother ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1030602)
PC Foul called - Lowering the shoulder or not LGP

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1030611)
The title inferred a lowering of the shoulder (which implies a charge and responsibility on the offense regardless of LGP),

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1030626)
I've yet to see "lowering the shoulder" as a reason for a foul in any rulebook. Every person who is running has lowered his/her shoulder to some degree.

Over many years, why have we seen many, many references to "lowering the shoulder" here on the Forum in reference to player control charging fouls?

Did I miss something when I first learned high school rules?

I remember talking about legal guarding position, feet, verticality, movement, airborne players, torsos, ducking, etc., but I don't remember discussing lowering shoulders (other than getting head and shoulders past the defender).

Was I absent that day?

Was it "Senior Skip Day"?

crosscountry55 Sun Feb 24, 2019 03:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1030632)
Over many years, why have we seen many, many references to "lowering the shoulder" here on the Forum in reference to player control charging fouls?



Did I miss something when I first learned high school rules?



Was I absent that day?



Was it "Senior Skip Day"?



Iím with you Billy but thatís why I said lowering the shoulder (in the context of the OP) implies a charge. I never said it guarantees it, for as you correctly state there is no specific rules coverage for lowering of the shoulder.

Looks like as a forum weíre professionally split on who had greater responsibility for the contact and whether LGP requirements were met. It was a close play, so I guess thatís ok.


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BillyMac Sun Feb 24, 2019 03:44pm

Colloquial Rule Of Shoulder ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1030633)
... there is no specific rules coverage for lowering of the shoulder.

Could it be some colloquial rule of thumb to help officials make a correct block/charge call?

If so, can it be shared with the rest of us, I've never heard about it in my high school games here in my little corner of Connecticut?

Rich Sun Feb 24, 2019 03:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedewed (Post 1030620)
no call. lgp is iffy at best, and d was closing on o at an angle, but offense initiated. a better no call in my book.



Who initiates contact is not important if B doesn't have LGP.


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