What is the call?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

How many steps did the defensive player take after the dribbler got in his path?

After changing direction, and subsequently establishing a new path and direction, were the dribbler and the defender now both traveling in the same path and direction?

If so, I don't think that the number of steps matters:

COMMENT: When both the dribbler and the opponent are moving in exactly the same path and same direction, the player behind is responsible for contact which results if the player in front slows down or stops.

If not, I think that the number of steps does matter because screening principles apply:

COMMENT: Screening principles apply to the dribbler who attempts to cut off an opponent who is approaching in a different path from the rear. In this case, the dribbler must allow such opponent a maximum of two steps or an opportunity to stop or avoid contact.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

After changing direction, and subsequently establishing a new path and direction, were the dribbler and the defender now both traveling in the same path and direction?



If so, I don't think that the number of steps matters:



COMMENT: When both the dribbler and the opponent are moving in exactly the same path and same direction, the player behind is responsible for contact which results if the player in front slows down or stops.



If not, I think that the number of steps does matter because screening principles apply:



COMMENT: Screening principles apply to the dribbler who attempts to cut off an opponent who is approaching in a different path from the rear. In this case, the dribbler must allow such opponent a maximum of two steps or an opportunity to stop or avoid contact.

It makes a difference as far as how soon the collision occurred afterwards. If he got in his path and stopped without giving the defender two steps to adjust between the time he got in his path and the time they collided, it's a foul on the screener. If he moved into the path and the defender got two or more steps before the collision, then if it's on the defense.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

It makes a difference as far as how soon the collision occurred afterwards. If he got in his path and stopped without giving the defender two steps to adjust between the time he got in his path and the time they collided, it's a foul on the screener. If he moved into the path and the defender got two or more steps before the collision, then if it's on the defense.

Ay, there’s the rub! (Hamlet, William Shakespeare)

Agree, both reasonable, and correct, but there aren't too many of us who are going to count steps and call a player control blocking (illegal screen) foul on a dribbler who changes direction and slows down to get his footwork established before a shot attempt and is plowed into by a defender from behind.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Ay, there’s the rub! (Hamlet, William Shakespeare)

Agree, both reasonable, and correct, but there aren't too many of us who are going to count steps and call a player control blocking (illegal screen) foul on a dribbler who changes direction and slows down to get his footwork established before a shot attempt and is plowed into by a defender from behind.

That collision is going to be almost immediately after the change in path for it too be on the offense. Maybe we should be checking ourselves on this type of play to make sure we aren't unfairly penalizing the defense.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Ay, there’s the rub! (Hamlet, William Shakespeare)

Agree, both reasonable, and correct, but there aren't too many of us who are going to count steps and call a player control blocking (illegal screen) foul on a dribbler who changes direction and slows down to get his footwork established before a shot attempt and is plowed into by a defender from behind.

That doesn't read like the OP -- which was near half court (a shot is unlikely here, and if there is one, it's a straight ahead launch), an "on-purpose" swerve and "slamming on the brakes".

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

... near half court, an "on-purpose" swerve and "slamming on the brakes".

That's fair. Now lets look a very similar situation but take away the "on purpose" part:

Originally Posted by SD Referee

I've seen players in transition suddenly stop and pull the ball out in an attempt to run the offense. They have been run over by a defensive player hustling up court to get back on defense.

I don't believe that there aren't too many of us who are going to count steps and call a player control blocking (illegal screen) foul on a dribbler who changes direction and slows down in an attempt to run the offense and is plowed into by a defender from behind.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

That's fair. Now lets look a very similar situation but take away the "on purpose" part:



I don't believe that there aren't too many of us who are going to count steps and call a player control blocking (illegal screen) foul on a dribbler who changes direction and slows down in an attempt to run the offense and is plowed into by a defender from behind.

Laziness on officials' part?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Laziness on officials' part?

Now now. Let's be real. In realtime bang-bang plays like this many times you don't have time or remember to "count" the steps. We do go with an approximation or feel. You get to count the steps if you see the whole action happening in your head in advance. We don't get that luxury many times.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I don't believe that there aren't too many of us who are going to … call a player control blocking (illegal screen) foul on a dribbler who changes direction and slows down in an attempt to run the offense and is plowed into by a defender from behind.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

… there aren't too many of us who are going to … call a player control blocking (illegal screen) foul on a dribbler who changes direction and slows down to get his footwork established before a shot attempt and is plowed into by a defender from behind.

Originally Posted by Raymond

Laziness on officials' part?

Fair point, but it's more the way many of us (as well as coaches, players, and fans) have seen it called for decades in games we've worked, and in games we've observed.

Right or wrong, ball handling screeners seem to be customarily treated differently than screeners without the ball.

Many of us seem to pay more attention to the third sentence of the comment rather than the first two sentences.

COMMENT: Screening principles apply to the dribbler who attempts to cut off an opponent who is approaching in a different path from the rear. In this case, the dribbler must allow such opponent a maximum of two steps or an opportunity to stop or avoid contact. When both the dribbler and the opponent are moving in exactly the same path and same direction, the player behind is responsible for contact which results if the player in front slows down or stops.