What is the call?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Ay, there’s the rub! (Hamlet, William Shakespeare)

Agree, both reasonable, and correct, but there aren't too many of us who are going to count steps and call a player control blocking (illegal screen) foul on a dribbler who changes direction and slows down to get his footwork established before a shot attempt and is plowed into by a defender from behind.

That doesn't read like the OP -- which was near half court (a shot is unlikely here, and if there is one, it's a straight ahead launch), an "on-purpose" swerve and "slamming on the brakes".

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

... near half court, an "on-purpose" swerve and "slamming on the brakes".

That's fair. Now lets look a very similar situation but take away the "on purpose" part:

Originally Posted by SD Referee

I've seen players in transition suddenly stop and pull the ball out in an attempt to run the offense. They have been run over by a defensive player hustling up court to get back on defense.

I don't believe that there aren't too many of us who are going to count steps and call a player control blocking (illegal screen) foul on a dribbler who changes direction and slows down in an attempt to run the offense and is plowed into by a defender from behind.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

That's fair. Now lets look a very similar situation but take away the "on purpose" part:



I don't believe that there aren't too many of us who are going to count steps and call a player control blocking (illegal screen) foul on a dribbler who changes direction and slows down in an attempt to run the offense and is plowed into by a defender from behind.

Laziness on officials' part?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Laziness on officials' part?

Now now. Let's be real. In realtime bang-bang plays like this many times you don't have time or remember to "count" the steps. We do go with an approximation or feel. You get to count the steps if you see the whole action happening in your head in advance. We don't get that luxury many times.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I don't believe that there aren't too many of us who are going to … call a player control blocking (illegal screen) foul on a dribbler who changes direction and slows down in an attempt to run the offense and is plowed into by a defender from behind.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

… there aren't too many of us who are going to … call a player control blocking (illegal screen) foul on a dribbler who changes direction and slows down to get his footwork established before a shot attempt and is plowed into by a defender from behind.

Originally Posted by Raymond

Laziness on officials' part?

Fair point, but it's more the way many of us (as well as coaches, players, and fans) have seen it called for decades in games we've worked, and in games we've observed.

Right or wrong, ball handling screeners seem to be customarily treated differently than screeners without the ball.

Many of us seem to pay more attention to the third sentence of the comment rather than the first two sentences.

COMMENT: Screening principles apply to the dribbler who attempts to cut off an opponent who is approaching in a different path from the rear. In this case, the dribbler must allow such opponent a maximum of two steps or an opportunity to stop or avoid contact. When both the dribbler and the opponent are moving in exactly the same path and same direction, the player behind is responsible for contact which results if the player in front slows down or stops.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Right or wrong, ball handling screeners seem to be customarily treated differently than screeners without the ball.

That's because customarily, the primary function of a screener is to get in somebody's way, which often leads to contact. Customarily, the ballhandler is occupied doing other things, but on the rare occasion that it happens, make the call and move on.


"Sometimes, you have to just referee."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

... the primary function of a screener is to get in somebody's way, which often leads to contact. Customarily, the ballhandler is occupied doing other things, but on the rare occasion that it happens, make the call and move on.

While, by rule, a ball handler may have to be treated as a screener, I have never seen a ball handler called for a player control (illegal screen) blocking foul in over thirty-eight years of officiating (added to years of playing, coaching, and observing).

Player control fouls are usually called for a ball handler plowing into a defender, not for a defender plowing into a ball handler from the rear.

If I ever call this, I'm not looking forward to explaining it to the coach, even if I whip out my rulebook and prove that I'm correct.

[Jay R]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

While, by rule, a ball handler may have to be treated as a screener, I have never seen a ball handler called for a player control (illegal screen) blocking foul in over thirty-eight years of officiating (added to years of playing coaching, and observing).

Player control fouls are usually called for a ball handler plowing into a defender, not for a defender plowing into a ball handler from the rear.

If I ever call this, I'm not looking forward to explaining it to the coach, even if I whip out my rulebook and prove that I'm correct.

One fairly common illegal screen by dribbler is when the dribbler is handing off a pass and screens illegally by sticking out his butt etc....

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

While, by rule, a ball handler may have to be treated as a screener, I have never seen a ball handler called for a player control (illegal screen) blocking foul in over thirty-eight years of officiating (added to years of playing, coaching, and observing).

That's why, at some levels, it's been a POE (at least informally, if not formally).

[RefRich]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Fair point, but it's more the way many of us (as well as coaches, players, and fans) have seen it called for decades in games we've worked, and in games we've observed.

Right or wrong, ball handling screeners seem to be customarily treated differently than screeners without the ball.

Many of us seem to pay more attention to the third sentence of the comment rather than the first two sentences.

COMMENT: Screening principles apply to the dribbler who attempts to cut off an opponent who is approaching in a different path from the rear. In this case, the dribbler must allow such opponent a maximum of two steps or an opportunity to stop or avoid contact. When both the dribbler and the opponent are moving in exactly the same path and same direction, the player behind is responsible for contact which results if the player in front slows down or stops.

I had almost the exact play as the OP in the playoffs, HS, last year with one exception. The dribbler immediately moved into the path, less than two steps, but the kicker was he even tried to backup a step so there was no possible way for the defender to avoid contact.

Foul on the dribbler, we went the other way.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by RefRich

The dribbler immediately moved into the path, less than two steps, but the kicker was he even tried to backup a step so there was no possible way for the defender to avoid contact. Foul on the dribbler, we went the other way.

Good call. I'm not sure that I would have made the same call, not because I disagree with the interpretation, but because it's such an odd call to properly react to in a bang bang situation.

The "backup a step" may have helped.

[bucky]

Indeed, backing up is waaaaaay different. In that case, it is a PC foul...every...single...time.