NCAAM - Inbound steal = Primary or secondary defender?

[Multiple Sports]

This play has been sent to a small college staff to be answered survey monkey. The defender is primary, the RA only applies to a "secondary" defender. It isn't a fast break situation so you can throw all of that out the door. The play is a charge....

[bucky]

Thanks for response.

I would like to know at what point they thought B1 became a primary defender...or even a defender. When the ball was stolen, B1 was out of bounds. Was he a primary defender, or defender at all, while out of bounds? Or did he become that after stepping inbounds? Whateves...I guess that is a different post.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by bucky

Thanks for response.

I would like to know at what point they thought B1 became a primary defender...or even a defender. When the ball was stolen, B1 was out of bounds. Was he a primary defender, or defender at all, while out of bounds? Or did he become that after stepping inbounds? Whateves...I guess that is a different post.

Dude, as an official you need to know when legal guarding position is established. That marks the beginning of "defending". You are letting primary/secondary confuse you.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by deecee

Dude, as an official you need to know when legal guarding position is established. That marks the beginning of "defending". You are letting primary/secondary confuse you.

I disagree. A player can be defending and/or guarding without having legal guarding position. It happens all the time, even hundreds of times per game.

[johnny d]

I asked 25 NCAA-M D1 officials that I know about this play. These officials get anywhere from 10-60 D1 games a year and work in conferences ranging from the OVC and WAC on the lower end, and the PAC12 and Big Ten on the high end, and all kinds of mid-major conferences in between. 22 of them said this is an outnumbered break, and the defender is a secondary defender. 3 of them, including the two newest officials to get D1 games, were on the opposite side. Many of the longer serving D1 officials mentioned that there were either rulings or discussions at the preseason NCAA meetings the year the RA went into effect where they were informed that this type of play is to be ruled an outnumbered break and secondary defender. During a brief inspection of the NCAA-M central hub, I did not find an archive of rulings or presentations that went back to the year the RA was added to the rule set. I put very little effort into looking so it is probably there if anyone wants to actually do the work to find it.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by johnny d

I asked 25 NCAA-M D1 officials that I know about this play. These officials get anywhere from 10-60 D1 games a year and work in conferences ranging from the OVC and WAC on the lower end, and the PAC12 and Big Ten on the high end, and all kinds of mid-major conferences in between. 22 of them said this is an outnumbered break, and the defender is a secondary defender. 3 of them, including the two newest officials to get D1 games, were on the opposite side. Many of the longer serving D1 officials mentioned that there were either rulings or discussions at the preseason NCAA meetings the year the RA went into effect where they were informed that this type of play is to be ruled an outnumbered break and secondary defender. During a brief inspection of the NCAA-M central hub, I did not find an archive of rulings or presentations that went back to the year the RA was added to the rule set. I put very little effort into looking so it is probably there if anyone wants to actually do the work to find it.

So, as I quoted the originator of this thread earlier:

Originally Posted by Raymond

...

Unless somewhere here has direct access to JD Collins or Art Hyland, all you're going to get are opinions. I don't think an answer is going to magically fall out of the sky. You are only going to get variations of this: "If you think B1 is a primary defender in the RA, then you have an offensive foul. If you think B1 is a secondary defender in the RA, then you have a defensive foul. If you think that B1 is neither a primary nor a secondary defender, then you have found a loophole in the rules regarding the RA......and you would have to make some sort of call based on something. "

Other than Hyland or Collins, the closest we'll get to a definitive answer is if someone asks Al Battista.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by bucky

Thanks for response.

I would like to know at what point they thought B1 became a primary defender...or even a defender. When the ball was stolen, B1 was out of bounds. Was he a primary defender, or defender at all, while out of bounds? Or did he become that after stepping inbounds? Whateves...I guess that is a different post.

What a tangled mess this rule is. So suppose that in this play B1 remains out of bounds and B2 manages to cause a charge that's in the RA. If I've read this thread right, that's a charge because this is not an outnumbered fast break. But if B1 steps in just before the contact from A1 we have a block?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by youngump

What a tangled mess this rule is. So suppose that in this play B1 remains out of bounds and B2 manages to cause a charge that's in the RA. If I've read this thread right, that's a charge because this is not an outnumbered fast break. But if B1 steps in just before the contact from A1 we have a block?

If B2 established legal guarding position outside of the RA, then B2 can take a charge inside of the RA if he maintained LGP the entire time.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[ilyazhito]

If B1 remains out of bounds and does not return, we have a different issue, out of bounds of his own volition. Normally, that gets called against an offensive player who uses the out-of-bounds area to evade a defender, but if a defender uses out-of-bounds to bend the rules to allow his teammate to draw a charge, I would punish the defender for being intentionally OOB, and call that instead of the apparent foul.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by johnny d

I asked 25 NCAA-M D1 officials that I know about this play.

Wow, thank you. I appreciate the legwork a great deal.