Requesting timeout on layup situation???

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

If these 2 plays happen in the same game (request/try released/whistle/AP arrow vs. airborne/request/land OOB/whistle/grant time-out), how do explain the contradicting rulings to the coach?

ilyazhito is the only person on this planet that I know who, in a real game, would deny an airborne player a timeout as he's flying out of bounds. There isn't a coach on this planet who would question my call on this play to grant the timeout. Coaches may not know all the rules, but they have a pretty good knowledge of the game.

If the coach questions my call to grant the airborne player a timeout, I'll just refer to the coach to The Intent And Purpose Of The Rules in the NFHS Rulebook.

We have some officials who have trouble understanding the subtle differences between certain situations, coaches don't know the rules that well to question these subtle differences.

A real game isn't the same as a written rules exam.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

ilyazhito is the only person on this planet that I know who, in a real game, would deny an airborne player a timeout as he's flying out of bounds. There isn't a coach on this planet who would question my call on this play to grant the timeout. Coaches may not know all the rules, but they have a pretty good knowledge of the game.

If the coach questions my call to grant the airborne player a timeout, I'll just refer to the coach to The Intent And Purpose Of The Rules in the NFHS Rulebook.

We have some officials who have trouble understanding the subtle differences between certain situations, coaches don't know the rules that well to question these subtle differences.

A real game isn't the same as a written rules exam.

If you have a game where you go to the AP arrow b/c the whistle occurs after the try is released but you grant a time-out when a player lands OOB prior to the whistle, why wouldn't a coach question that?

How is the intent and purposes of the rules applicable to the OOB play, but not the shooting play?

When I brought up the intent and purposes of the rules in regards to jump ball restrictions, you kept referring me back to actual written rule.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

If you have a game where you go to the AP arrow b/c the whistle occurs after the try is released but you grant a time-out when a player lands OOB prior to the whistle, why wouldn't a coach question that?

First. They're two different situations, apples and oranges, one is a timeout called by a coach that has to be verified, possibly taking the official's vision off the player for a second, and the other is a timeout called by player right in front to me.

Second: While the coach may question my release call there's no way that he has to rules knowledge to compare it to my airborne player call.

Third: Coaches, fans, players, and most officials (only one exception on the planet) really don't break down the dead ball rule for an airborne player. They just know that it's allowed in high school basketball, and has been called that way since the Mayans were kicking the heads of their decapitated enemies through stone rings.

Fourth. Here in my little corner of Connecticut, we're taught and expected to verify that the ball is still in player control after verifying that the request is being made by the head coach, before we grant any such timeout and sound our whistle. Been doing it that way since 1998, well before the 2016-17 NFHS Basketball Points of Emphasis. After I verify it's the head coach, I then observe that the player has released the ball and I will not grant a time out, nor will I sound my whistle, because there is no player control during a try. Ignore the request. Play on.

So unless I screw up, the question for me is moot.

And if a screw up, I will admit to the coaches that I screwed up and my partner and I will figure out how to get out to the mess that I caused in a fair manner, maybe using black and white rules, or maybe using purpose and intent of those rules.

[ilyazhito]

Typically, the airborne player TO is requested by a player when he is still inbounds, so if I blow the whistle immediately on a player request, I can grant it before he is out of bounds. I can't always do that for a coach request, though, because I need to verify that it is the HEAD coach, and that the player has control after the head coach request. By that time, the player would usually have either batted the ball back inbounds, or have gained out of bounds status.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

First. They're two different situations, apples and oranges, one is a timeout called by a coach that has to be verified, possibly taking the official's vision off the player for a second, and the other is a timeout called by player right in front to me.



Second: While the coach may question my release call there's no way that he has to rules knowledge to compare it to my airborne player call.



Third: Coaches, fans, players, and most officials (only one exception on the planet) really don't break down the dead ball rule for an airborne player. They just know that it's allowed in high school basketball, and has been called that way since the Mayans were kicking the heads of their decapitated enemies through stone rings.



Fourth. Here in my little corner of Connecticut, we're taught and expected to verify that the ball is still in player control after verifying that the request is being made by the head coach, before we grant any such timeout and sound our whistle. Been doing it that way since 1998, well before the 2016-17 NFHS Basketball Points of Emphasis. After I verify it's the head coach, I then observe that the player has released the ball and I will not grant a time out, nor will I sound my whistle, because there is no player control during a try. Ignore the request. Play on.



So unless I screw up, the question for me is moot.



And if a screw up, I will admit to the coaches that I screwed up and my partner and I will figure out how to get out to the mess that I caused in a fair manner, maybe using black and white rules, or maybe using purpose and intent of those rules.

Quit making the coaches ignorant of the rules to avoid answering the question. But I'll play your game.

I just moved to Connecticut and I'm the coach. In the shooting situation, the request comes from a player who is in your visual field along with the shooter. What rules justification do you have to deny the time out in one situation and grant it in the other?

You gave a lecture about whistles making the ball dead in the shooting situation then say you ignore that principle in the OOB situation. Then you justify it not by the rule book, but by saying coaches are too stupid to figure out your contradiction.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

What rules justification do you have to deny the time out in one situation and grant it in the other? You gave a lecture about whistles making the ball dead in the shooting situation then say you ignore that principle in the OOB situation.

Absolutely none, although the "release" situation would seldom happen to me because we "double verify" here in my area, and have been for twenty years.

I don't grant timeouts while a try is airborne. In this thread I was answering ("lecturing") for officials who might, as for an answer on a written exam. After research, I was actually surprised to discover that "granting a timeout" was not listed as one ways that the ball becomes dead, and that it's the whistle, not the granting, that makes the ball dead. I really did not expect to discover that.

There are dead balls that occur before a whistle is sounded, but a time out being granted (surprisingly to me) is not one of them.

If I were to ever grant during a released try in a real game, I would be wrong and I would have to deal with it like any other mistake. I have yet to work a perfect game.

I do grant timeouts to players flying out of bounds. No rule basis. No casebook basis. In thirty-eight years of officiating, working games, and observing an equal number of games, I have yet to see a single official deny such a request. Players, fans, coaches, my assigner, evaluators, and partners, all expect me to grant that request.

I don't sound my whistle when a free throw shooter has the ball for eleven seconds either. No rule basis. No casebook basis. I just don't because that's not the way we do things around here. And please don't ask me at what point I would sound my whistle, I have never reached that elusive number, not yet, but I know that if I ever get that far, I will sound my whistle using purpose and intent.

My assigner, my evaluators, and my partners, expect me to do things in certain ways. Sometimes 100% by the book, sometimes not quite by the book. Don't ask for a written list, there's not one, it's part of our culture and is learned through observation and experience.

Coaches, players, and fans in my area have also come to expect officials to do things in certain ways. Sometimes 100% by the book, sometimes not quite by the book, it's part of our basketball culture here in my local area.

As a young varsity official, I once called a punched ball violation when no other player was anywhere near the puncher. 100% by the book. Before the end of the tournament, my partner, and the more experienced guys who followed us, made it very known to me that I shouldn't do that again, and I haven't.

I don't believe that one can officiate well by going by the book 100%. I also don't think that one can officiate well not knowing the written rules and interpretations. In medio stat virtus (Horace).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

In the shooting situation, the request comes from a player who is in your visual field along with the shooter. What rules justification do you have to deny the time out in one situation ...

Both in my visual field?

Shooter still has player control? Grant the timeout.

Shooter has released the shot? Deny the timeout request, play on.

Shooter is in the act of shooting but hasn't released the shot? Grant the timeout.

These are easy to explain to any coach or assigner.

Now the airborne player flying out of bounds is another story. Grant the timeout, no rules basis, no casebook basis, easy to explain to my assigner, impossible to explain to a very intelligent coach who just moved to Connecticut (see above post). Calling this won't lower any evaluation, and won't get me taken off the varsity list (I've already taken myself off the varsity list due to a chronic orthopedic problem). It may cost me one state tournament vote by the new coach, but I can live with that, and I won't lose any sleep over it (I only worked one varsity game this year, so I doubt that I'm getting more than two votes, if that, anyway).

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Both in my visual field?



Shooter still has player control? Grant the timeout.



Shooter has released the shot? Deny the timeout request, play on.



Shooter is in the act of shooting but hasn't released the shot? Grant the timeout, no continuation here.



These are easy to explain to any coach or assigner.



Now the airborne player flying out of bounds is another story. Grant the timeout, no rules basis, no casebook basis, easy to explain to my assigner, impossible to explain to a very intelligent coach who just moved to Connecticut (see above post). Calling this won't lower any evaluation, and won't get me taken off the varsity list (I've already taken myself off the varsity list due to a chronic orthopedic problem). It may cost me one state tournament vote by the new coach, but I can live with that, and I won't lose any sleep over it (I only worked one varsity game this year, so I doubt that I'm getting more than two votes, if that, anyway).

The only time I would have to explain anything to any of my supervisors is if I fail to grant a time out because the whistle came after the shot was released or after the throw-in was released.

Every supervisor I've worked for expects us to grant the timeout based on the status of the ball when we recognized the time-out was being requested.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Every supervisor I've worked for expects us to grant the timeout based on the status of the ball when we recognized the time-out was being requested.

Sounds like a good plan for you guys because it appears that you guys don't "double verify". And that's fine because the Point of Emphasis in 2016-17 is unclear in regard to such a "double verification".

Here in my little corner of Connecticut, we're taught and expected to verify that the ball is still in player control after verifying that the request is being made by the head coach before we grant any such timeout and sound our whistle. Been doing it that way since 1998.

When in Rome ...